you can mix pure LCR but still place sounds anywhere you want in the left-to-right field.

for example: 
Take your double tracked acoustic, or double tracked synth portaleads... whatever, just double track it, maybe use a different instrument or inversions but play the same part twice... take those two tracks and pan one hard and the other center, and use your faders to create the l/r movement. You will be astonished at how much cooler it is to 'pan' this way.

Putting one or both tracks in the same relative spot using pan knobs is not remotely the same; try it and you'll understand in 2 seconds.

That's exactly what the pan control in SONAR does to a stereo track. The "balance" knob on your stereo works the same way.

Problem is that if left and right aren't identical, you lose information. Take, for example, a miked Leslie. That's a real stereo source that depends on the L-R differences to experience the Leslie effect. To pan it, you need to literally pan one or both channels because simply lowering one side would degrade the Leslie effect.

That's why you usually want to use the Channel Tools plugin or something like it when panning a stereo track.

Al, I came across something you may find interesting. This guy sort of feels the way I feel. Before you click on that, hear me out for second.

http://productionadvice.co.uk/lcr-mixing-sucks/

There's a video in that link by Graham Cochrane (whom I respect) that I personally feel is a prime example of LCR failing. Let me tell you why...

The mix to me is not pronounced and you can hear all the stuff being wide and disconnected in my opinion as well as instrument upon instrument laying on top of each other. He mentions in the vid that he has lots of instruments going on. Can you really hear them all? I mean you sort of can if you listen really hard, but to me, listening to music "really hard" isn't something I like to do unless I'm doing a consultation for someone or fixing someone's mix, ya know? I'd much rather have things jump out at me in different spots.

To me, this mix sounds like this:

<<<<music>>>>---------------------------------drums, bass and vocals-----------------------------------<<<<music>>>>

It's definitely not something I'd be happy with.

The link also mentions a few things from Mixerman. That's another guy I respect, but sort of feel some of his ideas are not to my liking nor do I think many of his results are "mindblowing" or "fantastic" like he makes them out to be.

Though I'd NOT agree with the guy in the link when he mentions "LCR sucks" some of what he has to say as well as Graham's video are the reasons why I don't particularly care for the method. With that, I will leave you to form your own conclusions. :)

-Danny

Great link, Danny. One of the comments drew an analogy to a live band. LCR would be like having the guitarist and keyboardist playing in different rooms from the bass 'n drums. You wouldn't find that acceptable at a night club or concert hall, so why is it preferable inside your head when listening on headphones?

Still, I do believe in the unstated concept underlying LRC, which is that you need to be more dramatic when mixing if you want the listener to notice. That 5% pan might sound like just the ticket to you, but a) you're intently listening and b) you made the adjustment so you know about it and expect to hear it. The end-listener isn't paying that close attention. 

Still, I do believe in the unstated concept underlying LRC, which is that you need to be more dramatic when mixing if you want the listener to notice. That 5% pan might sound like just the ticket to you, but a) you're intently listening and b) you made the adjustment so you know about it and expect to hear it. The end-listener isn't paying that close attention.

 
That's an excellent observation, bit. The 5% thing is like using this smokin' pre that you feel you can't live without. Just about no one is gonna notice. LOL! I agree with you for sure....there's just something about these mixes that make me feel exactly the way you described it in your first sentence, which I didn't quote.
 
What were your thoughts on Graham's mix in that video? Even if you don't agree with me and liked it, could you at least hear it that way I did and see why I might not go for something like this? It just sounds too disconnected to me with the instruments being so on top of each other, it almost sounds like a Sonitus phase plug being used to the extreme. Like once you go past 100% in the width area with the Sonitus phase, it sounds weird. That mix sounds weird to me in that same light.
 
Yet, if I can be truthful here....if bats is using this technique on the mixes I've heard, I don't get that "disconnection" when I've listened to his stuff. I always hear things and it doesn't have that sound stage like I tried to draw up in my last post. The mix Grham did almost sounds like it has a stereo spreader on it to my ears....and that's the sound that can make mixes using this technique unappealing to me. Make sense at all?
 
-Danny 

i think one of the key things to consider with LCR is the number of delay/phase effects in use on a track. the more of that i have, the more likely i am to use a LCR approach. but that's typically because those effects tend to greatly reduce the "hard-panned" sound.

on drums, i probably wouldn't do LCR because unless you've got a really heavy mix, it's going to sound kinda funny (well, everything dead center may pass, but snare dead R and hat dead L or worse, toms??? attack of the 50-ft drummer) and probably be distracting.

i also consider the wide variety of listening experiences - earbuds, car stereos (driver's on the left side), home stereos, laptops, some bookshelf thing halfway across the room - the mix has to translate in all those. The bigger the difference between the two channels, the less likely the mix is going to translate between those various situations.

not that LCR = bad, but again, no technique should trump your ears.

Me too on the listening experiences thing. The one thing I find though, the tighter panned a mix is, the more is seems to sound good and translate everywhere. The wider mixes seem to be a catch 22 at times.

I don't know where the heck ya been Jack, but all the posts you've been putting up here recently the past few days have been awesome. Stick around here man, it's nice to hear your opinions. :)

-Danny

car stereos (driver's on the left side)

Unless the driver's in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India or Japan. Talk about a Catch-22. A wide mix is always going to sound unbalanced in somebody's car.

you don't have to mix guitars, keys, etc, 100% left and right.

you can take a stereo  signal and bring the hard left up 40% on the fader, put the right side at center position, and bring it's fader up  up 60%, and you've moved that sound somewhere around the 20% mark.


or take a mono delay, and use a send on a hard panned track to move the 'image' more towards the center with the delay send....
there are a thousand different ways to skin this cat.


i just don't think you have quite grasped the ideal of it yet...

if you have listened to any of my mixes in the last 2 years, they've almost all been mixed with mostly LCR technique.

no one has mentioned a 'too wide' mix to date.



if you spend some time listening to some of your favorite mixes, and even bother with some S-M plugs, you'll be amazed at how much of it is purely LCR


don't be scared of it.
it works.