This story makes me realize I need to learn more about using automation. I was surprised when looking at some of those tracks. Does anyone have any tips or links to help with the learning curve? I know how automation works in Sonar...I guess it's application I have over looked. Has anyone read this story in SOS?

I didn't think console automation even existed at the time of Zep's first couple albums. When it came along a few years later it was expensive and very limited (no pan or EQ automation, just volume faders). I don't think I even saw an automated console until the mid 80's. I thought it was uber-cool at the time, and the studio was quite proud of having it.

Which album were they discussing? My local bookstore where I used to buy SoS has closed and I can't bring myself to pay for reading it online, so I have to wait until it's posted as a free read.

yes, i'm confused by your question as well....

It's about the Celebration Day DVD from their "02" gig a few years back.

oh, that's different.


learning curve for automation?

dive in!

that's the only way, there are no shortcuts to attain skills.

Yeah, the story is about mixing the new live cd and dvd. It has a few screenshots of pro tools were the toms are treated heavy with automation. I think I've been missing a boat here. As I said my question is more about application...not how to do it. I believe he was trying to eliminate crosstalk or spillover with the toms for clarity. I guess it's just dawning on me what all can be done with automation.

It's not uncommon, and presumably didn't require automation even back in the day - just a pair of extra hands, to ride tom fills. Keep them down when the toms aren't being used, to reduce bleed and I guess sympathetic ring, and push them up during the fills.

These days, automation is often completely abused, and is part of the hyper-artificial nature of modern music. It's as likely these days to be used to make up for lack of skill as to make a sonic improvement.
 

i've used automation instead of deessing, for example...

i mean, you could literally automate every single sound, but there's a point where your capture needs to be good enough to not have to ever do that...
then, you decide on an ARTISTIC reason to do automation...
from basic level control, to creating effects with simple fader rides....


automation, when i speak 'automation', usually i'm thinking very simple use:
1. Volume
2. Panning


on occasion, i'll do 'EFFECTS SEND' automation, just to bring, say, a reverb in and out.

but you can get crazy with automation.


when i mix, i get a good overall balance, and live with that for a while...
and eventually, every single track gets a volume envelope put on it, and i automate every track.

sometimes, like on a bass line, the automation envelope will remain a straight line throughout!
LOL

but, depending on the arrangment, if i have a quiet section, and i did not perform the bass line with the level of dynamics i really wanted, i'll simply bring the bass volume down for a section, and then bring it back up to the level it was to start.


but making music BREATHE........
is to me, the point of automation.


i can imagine, that the mixer wanted the toms to really stand out on signature fills, just like a mixer of days gone by, would have simply ridden the faders and pushed them up for that section, and brought them back down before the next vocal line started.

i also will edit every track's wave form, to REMOVE the silence in between clips of active sound.

i do this before i ever slap a volume envelope on it.

if you do it after, you'll end up with dozens of nodes on your envelope, which is quite annoying!

clintmartin


This story makes me realize I need to learn more about using automation. I was surprised when looking at some of those tracks. Does anyone have any tips or links to help with the learning curve? I know how automation works in Sonar...I guess it's application I have over looked. Has anyone read this story in SOS?

I'll tell ya Clint, that's definitely one of the best live track mixes I've ever heard. When I heard Kashmir (I'm working on a heavy version of it myself based on the Celebration Day DVD) the hair on my arms stood up....and I ain't got much hair on my arms. LOL!
 
Automation is both a feel and an ear thing really. The best use is for when you need something to stand out in a spot and then you back it down again. You'll really go crazy with this stuff when you have a large mix because the instruments sort of take turns blasting dynamically and then backing down.
 
For example, there are certain pitches in instruments that will stick out further while others sort of blend right in. In times when you have a "blend right in" situation, you may need the instrument in question to rise a few dB so it remains consistent. In a sense, you're sort of using automation like a compressor but you'd be handling volume only instead of transient attack/release and volume, understand?
 
Then of course there are times when you may want an effects bus to be hotter so the effect you're using can be heard a bit more, and then you back it down or totally shut it down if need be.
 
Or, during a guitar solo, you may have two rhythm guitars going on. When the solo section hits, you may drop the rhythm guitars down -1 dB and after the solo finishes, you bring those rhythms back up so it doesn't sound like something dropped out when the vocals come back in.
 
Or you may have a place where the drums need to hit a little harder in a song or maybe the drummer did one of those riffs that gently came in and may have been a bit too reserved on his natural, human fade in. So you can automate and bring those drums up and ride the fader. There are loads of uses for automation but it's up to you to decide where and IF you even need them. Not every piece of music needs insane automation.
 
Most times, lead vocals or lead guitars are the ones that will need a bit of "fader riding" as we like to call it. Or any time a lead instrument is the focal point, you may need to ride the fader via automation so all the parts are heard. You're basically just trying to express an instrument to where it sort of comes out of the shadows a bit and then it may fade back into the mix to where it's a nice blend.
 
Let's go back to that rhythm guitar situation again. With lowering the volume on them, you may also decide to automate the pans and pan outwards (wider) to make room for the lead guitar that will be in the center pan field with a delay and a stereo widener so it simulates taking up more than just the center pan field. When the solo is done, you lower the rhythm guitars and tighten up the pans so that space the lead guitar was in, is now filled up again and nothing drops out.
 
So you pretty much have to use your imagination based on the instrumentation you're working with and if you experiment a bit, you'll find yourself doing little trippy things here and there, and you'll know when to do this to the extreme and when to just let an instrument be heard for a bit. Hope this helps a bit. :)
 
-Danny