2017/10/04 20:07:38
michaelhanson
slartabartfast
 
But strong arguments can be made that the sense of personal security that comes from gun ownership is largely illusory. 




You may want to read The Harvard Journal of Law's study on reducing fire arms.  Also the CDC's findings on protection with fire arms.  They don't support the statement that it is an illusion.  
2017/10/04 20:19:30
eph221
michaelhanson
slartabartfast
 
But strong arguments can be made that the sense of personal security that comes from gun ownership is largely illusory. 




You may want to read The Harvard Journal of Law's study on reducing fire arms.  Also the CDC's findings on protection with fire arms.  They don't support the statement that it is an illusion.  


michaelhanson
slartabartfast
 
But strong arguments can be made that the sense of personal security that comes from gun ownership is largely illusory. 




You may want to read The Harvard Journal of Law's study on reducing fire arms.  Also the CDC's findings on protection with fire arms.  They don't support the statement that it is an illusion.  





CDC can't study the problem because of poly ticks. Everyone else can though!  Honestly, it's a mixture of sociology (blech), psychology, anthropology, poly ticks.  It needs a multi-discipline approach.  Obviously, based on this thread, we can't even agree there's a problem in need of a solution.  Be-liebers  can press forward anyways.
2017/10/04 20:40:31
bdickens
If you really think that strict gun control works, I have just one word for you: Chicago.

The fact (there"s that word again) is that the parts of the US with the most gun control have the most violent crime and the parts with the least gun control have the least violent crime. And overall, as the rate of gun ownership had gone up, the rate of violent crime has gone down.

But don't take my word for it. Ask the FBI. They compile reams of data on this stuff. https://ucr.fbi.gov/
2017/10/04 20:53:17
Beepster
Which completely ignores the elephant in the room that when you have borderless states with varying gun regulations the states/areas with the tightest regulations can just easily import their weapons across state lines.
 
Byron, please stop posting NRA pamphlet material. This is NOT the forum for it.
 
PLEASE and thank you.
2017/10/04 21:18:15
bapu
I've lost track. What's the score on this debate?
2017/10/04 21:27:00
Beepster
bapu
I've lost track. What's the score on this debate?




Irrational People: +1 billionty
 
Rational People: -11ty ziollionjy
 
Facepalm Manufacturers: WIN!!!
 
 
 
 
idon'tlikethisgame
 
:-(
2017/10/04 22:16:57
slartabartfast
michaelhanson
slartabartfast
 
But strong arguments can be made that the sense of personal security that comes from gun ownership is largely illusory. 




You may want to read The Harvard Journal of Law's study on reducing fire arms.  Also the CDC's findings on protection with fire arms.  They don't support the statement that it is an illusion.  




The CDC report is largely useless for making any point about the effectiveness of gun ownership per se in deterring a threat to the person. It does mention conflicting surveys that may support the argument that individuals with guns may prevent crimes. I have no argument with that proposition. I own a shotgun, and I would never consider killing a wild animal except for euthanasia. But my unscientific study of a single gun owner (myself) in the same paragraph demonstrates the reason that the vast majority of gun owners may overestimate the protection that it may afford them against serious bodily harm or death. Like condom use for pregnancy, unless you are packing at all times, you remain vulnerable to a determined attack. In the primary data referenced there that support your point the overwhelming "use" described by survey respondents is basically menacing or threatening a criminal with a gun. That gun use might better be characterized as persuasion, although the presence of the gun can be considered a convincing argument. Although extrapolation from reports indicates a large number of episodes of deterring crime with a gun, the number of criminals killed by victims is only about three thousand annually. Presumably most of the deterrence could be accomplished with a facsimile weapon, a practice which I would not recommend since an armed perpetrator fearing for his life might well kill the toy gun wielding good guy in "self defense." Survey respondents often report that they used a gun to save a life. I certainly would not want to introduce a gun into a confrontation unless I believed a life was at stake, but I realize that in most cases of stranger crime, the criminal is unlikely to intend to kill me or others near me, although I expect many are willing to try to convince me that they will do so if I do not comply.
 
The CDC does make some disquieting suggestions that the ready availability of guns in the home may significantly increase the likelihood of interfamilial murder and suicide, and that violent media and video games may contribute, but I am not suggesting banning guns, suicide or games either.
 
This is all I can find that is relevant in the CDC report:
Protective Effects of Gun Ownership
Estimates of gun use for self-defense vary widely, in part due to definitional differences for self-defensive gun use; different data sources; and questions about accuracy of data, particularly when self-reported. The NCVS has estimated 60,000 to 120,000 defensive uses of guns per year. On the basis of data from 1992 and 1994, the NCVS found 116,000 incidents (McDowall et al., 1998). Another body of research estimated annual gun use for self-defense to be much higher, up to 2.5 million incidents, suggesting that self-defense can be an important crime deterrent (Kleck and Gertz, 1995). Some studies on the association between self-defensive gun use and injury or loss to the victim have found less loss and injury when a firearm is used (Kleck, 2001b).
 
https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#40
 
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/91da/afbf92d021f06426764e800a4e639a1c1116.pdf
 
 
2017/10/04 23:04:20
Beepster
There has also been a massive push by GRA's and their lobbyists to prevent proper federal level analysis of gun related statistics in the US.
 
Essentially the people who are supposed to/smart enough to gather, analyze and disseminate the data have been consistently hamstrung by the lobby groups who have a vested interest in NOT having those stats be even gathered or looked at... never mind being released to the public.
 
It's one thing to be for gun rights but it is an entirely other thing to try to bully/buy off elected officials to not only bury evidence but actively prevent any study of the issue.
 
To all those who actually ARE responsible gun owners... the people "supposedly" representing you are absolutely the worst suited for the job. Ya'll need to start your own group that isn't... urm... totally insane and evil.
2017/10/05 00:18:28
craigb
FWIW, those who have pondered why we didn't have these type events 50 years ago probably simply never heard about them (the media aspect again).
 
Maybe the following weren't 50 years ago, but about 40 is close enough.
 
I'm probably still the only one here who has ever been shot at during one of these events.  I was behind the elementary school on a short hill when Brenda Spencer took a rifle and started shooting because she hates Mondays.  It was a short-cut we used to go to the Junior High (now called "Middle School").  We thought we heard firecrackers and went to the fence to look.  A bullet ricocheted right past my head and a school playground guard started screaming at me and my friend to get down so we were stuck there for over two hours before we were able to sneak away.
 
A few blocks away from that, a straight-A, Eagle Scout snapped and took an ax to his whole family.
 
Oh yeah, and doesn't anyone remember Jim Jones?
2017/10/05 00:25:47
Beepster
Yikes, craigers. That's crazy.
 
Well... I guess at the least you're kind of part of music history. That spawned a pretty good tune.
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