That made me chuckle....

What frustrates me is why people refuse to focus on the real crime. Murdering is the real crime, not posession of a mere mechanical object.

"But guns are dangerous," you argue. Well, of course they are. Guns are SUPPOSED to be dangerous. That's the point. But so are baseball bats, machetes and iron pipes, all if which have been used to commit murder. The tool is not important. The ACT is what is important.


"But with a gun someone can kill more people," you argue. Well, if we could magic away all the guns and some homicidal psychopath has to use a sword and could only kill 10 people during his rampage instead of 50, are you really suggesting that is somehow BETTER? 1 or 100, of is all horrible. People on both sides like to throw around statistics. But if that victim is your wife, son, mother, that is 100% right there. 100% of that person is gone forever.

People get wound all up about mass shootings because they are flashy. The media sensationalizes them and indeed glamorizes them. But they are a tiny fraction of the entire murder rate. The number of deaths in mass shootings is infinitesimally small - statistically irrelevant - compared to the number of murders that happen one at a time.

Cold? Perhaps, but like I said before, making public policy based on emotional reactions to shocking, tragic events makes for bad public policy.

Someone asked earlier if since people are going to commit crimes anyway, do we just let them? No, of course not, he answers. Rightly, he points out that we have laws, not because they prevent crime, but to punish it.

Again, I argue that it is not the mere posession of an inanimate object that should be the crime not the misuse of it.

jamesg1213
I've read through this whole thread, weighed up the arguments on both sides, and there's still one thing that I just cannot get my head around.
 
It utterly baffles me.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Why is Byron still using Vista?

What? Where? I thought I changed that.

bdickens
But they are a tiny fraction of the entire murder rate. The number of deaths in mass shootings is infinitesimally small - statistically irrelevant - compared to the number of murders that happen one at a time.

"But if you look at a real catastrophe like Katrina, and you look at the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that died, and you look at what happened here with, really, a storm that was just totally overpowering -- nobody has ever seen anything like this. What is your death count, as of this moment -- 17?"
 
Hmmmm 17 deaths seems statistically irrelevant too?
 
Great "talking points" especially to the people who lost 100% of their loved ones.
 

bdickens

"But with a gun someone can kill more people," you argue. Well, if we could magic away all the guns and some homicidal psychopath has to use a sword and could only kill 10 people during his rampage instead of 50, are you really suggesting that is somehow BETTER?

Yes...because that would be 40 people that didn't die, and 500 that weren't injured. How is that NOT better?
 
With that kind of logic, why stop him shooting?
 
 
 
 

bapu

bdickens
But they are a tiny fraction of the entire murder rate. The number of deaths in mass shootings is infinitesimally small - statistically irrelevant - compared to the number of murders that happen one at a time.

"But if you look at a real catastrophe like Katrina, and you look at the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that died, and you look at what happened here with, really, a storm that was just totally overpowering -- nobody has ever seen anything like this. What is your death count, as of this moment -- 17?"
 
Hmmmm 17 deaths seems statistically irrelevant too?
 
Great "talking points" especially to the people who lost 100% of their loved ones.
 

 
Ok, really I have to agree.  I thought that was totally inane.  Thank Gosh we live in a country where we can say something like, "yeah, the President really fell flat on his face there.
 

I make these distinctions bdickens.  it's not always logical.  Weapons of mass destruction are banned.  We don't stop their use completely.  It's not a perfect solution.  The crime is murder, I'm for  keeping the murderers from having too strong of hand.  (sorry for the gambling pun).  Non-killers generally are not the people to ask for the solution.  We need solutions from your side in order to make it stick.  But our society will never get one as long as your side says it's not a problem. 
 
People who go in the military get extensive training on how to use those weapons.  The same training should apply to their purchase.
 
 

Linear Phase

sharke
When you have to take the subway at rush hour every morning, you get a vivid insight into what it feels like to be a sitting duck. 

An unarmed sitting duck.  I grew up in NYC.  It is hard to own guns in NYC.  The only people I knew who had guns were criminals.  The criminals in NYC have guns.  The honest people have no way to defend themselves.
 
Even martial arts, "a sport."  I do some of the most serious, hardest martial arts around.  I currently train (2 - 4 times a week) Brazilian jiu jitsu, and I've trained Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Krav Maga.  Real self defense is carrying a firearm - which as a law abiding citizen you can not get so easily in NYC, but the criminals have them.  Believe me the criminals have them, and the law abiding citizens are sitting ducks.

To be fair, I don't think being armed would protect anyone from a suicide bomb going off. Which is the main concern on the subway. In fact even if someone with a bomb was identified before it went off, shooting at him might actually cause the bomb to detonate because sometimes they hold a trigger in their hand which detonates the bomb when they release their grip. 

Linear Phase
And I was in and out of those towers my whole life.   Both my parents worked downtown.  I walked through those towers every day.  Especially since I had a buddy who went to a high school around the corner - I will not name the school
 

 
Probably Stuyvesant High then lol. 
 

I don't know about this or that amendment, I don't care about any of your rights. This is not a healthy discussion for this forum because it brings out the worst in people. If you want to take a side, call your elected official and make your case.
 
I've reported this thread and asked the powers that be to shut it down. What's wrong with you guys?