mike_mccue


Yes total brain plow... There are flatted Bb notes but of course it has nothing to do with C#.

When I said I know why you aren't supposed to call a # a b I was referring to the convention of enharmonic nomenclature... but of course I had the example botched.

Goes to show you how dim my theory bulb burns.


FWIW when I said D major I was referring to the Ionian mode.




Babbling... long day today and an early morning tomorrow. Be back Friday.


best regards,
mike

Bb in D Ionian (Major Scale) would be bVI
Bb would be diatonic in D Aeolian (Natural Minor)
Bb would also appear in the harmonic and melodic minor (both parts) scales.

Rus W

spacey


The key signature does not mean that the tune stays in the signature key.

When you say "D major" that can be confusing because a D7 is a major but it is
referred to as  a 7th. ( 1-3-5-b7)
Should the "D" be indicated as a "D" or "D major 7th) then the tune may have changed keys ( key of A or D)
If it has not changed keys then it should be written as D7 (key of G).

Bb that you mention is confusing. Bb= A# so I'm not sure what you're talking about. "C" or "C#" in the melody with
the "D" chord may help you define the type of "D" chord and key.

I can explain this!


I'll see if I can decipher the other portion.

At the time, I wasn't sure he really meant Bb....I thought he wanted to know about playing
in the key of "D" while the tune was in "G" and we were limited to two notes ( C-C#) for the
theoritical clues....and explaination.
This tree is shooting branches out so fast....one could get an eye poked out.
 
Good luck Mike. I think the little free theory lessons offered on-line is just much safer.

spacey

Rus W

spacey


The key signature does not mean that the tune stays in the signature key.

When you say "D major" that can be confusing because a D7 is a major but it is
referred to as  a 7th. ( 1-3-5-b7)
Should the "D" be indicated as a "D" or "D major 7th) then the tune may have changed keys ( key of A or D)
If it has not changed keys then it should be written as D7 (key of G).

Bb that you mention is confusing. Bb= A# so I'm not sure what you're talking about. "C" or "C#" in the melody with
the "D" chord may help you define the type of "D" chord and key.

I can explain this!


I'll see if I can decipher the other portion.

At the time, I wasn't sure he really meant Bb....I thought he wanted to know about playing
in the key of "D" while the tune was in "G" and we were limited to two notes ( C-C#) for the
theoritical clues....and explaination.
This tree is shooting branches out so fast....one could get an eye poked out.
 
Good luck Mike. I think the little free theory lessons offered on-line is just much safer.

Transposition purposes? No one has to stick to the key a song is in. If he's wondering how far down or up the sheet music would have to be transposed (if he was reading it) the answer would be up a perfect fifth (P5: G-D) or down a perfect fourth (P4: D-G). Of course, it also depends on the sonarity range of the song - specifically, the harmony because you don't want the transposed music to sound too high or too low. 


As for the theoretical clues, both C and C# are in tons of chords and all twelve keys; so, you'd have to come from another angle. What chord contains both notes? Lots of chords, so you have to narrow again. The question you have to ask yourself is: What scale degree often precedes I before a song begins? The answer is V. So, now you start figuring it out. If the song's in G, what's the V(7) of G? D7.


Again, if this is a question of transposing, you just have to know the interval relationship. If Mike wishes to play the song in D, knowing that D is either a P5 above or P4 below G, he'll have to shift the chords by the same interval. So, what's a fifth above and fourth bellow D? A. He'll have to play an A7 (in this case) since he's playing in D.


C-F-G7-C (That's in C) But he'd rather play it in A. How far is it from C-A or A-C? A major sixth or a minor third; therefore, shift the chords accordingly. Again, you could go either way, but to keep ears sane, you'd most likely wanna transpose down a minor third. When done, you get this: A-D-E7-A


I'm saying, I agree that you were limited, but not as much as you thought.


Given the title of this thread, something to note. By G Major staff, I take it, Mike means the key signature. If so, there will be one sharp, F#. However, the D Major scale and corresponding key signature has two sharps - F# and C#. Therefore, the sharp accidental must be placed on the C note as there isn't one in the key signature. If this were the keys D-C#, there needn't be one.


There are two ways of writing a scale: With a key signature or without. If there is none. you'll have to put the accidentals where appropriate.


D Major: KS: F# and C# - the written notes would be: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D.
D Major (no KS) - D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D

Having said this, if you have some knowledge regarding "The Circle of Fifths," you will see that each of the 14 (21 counting enharmonics) keys are related. By seeing this, the thread's question will be answered.

Take the C Major scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. When you split the scale in half, you have two different scales:

C-D-E-F / G-A-B-C - The first half of C Major belongs to C Major; however, the second half also belongs to G Major.

G-A-B-C / D-E-F#-G Now, having just complete the G Major scale, what other scale are you partly seeing? D Major.

D-E-F#-G / A-B-C#-D. The second half of the D major is? A Major

A-B-C#-D / E-F#-G# A - Second half of A is the first half of E

E-F#-G#-A / B-C#-D#-E ^ E ^ B

Essentially, when I finish it, I would have written out all the scales for the "Order of Sharps." (Starting on C going to the key of C#) I can also do the same thing for flats (F-Cb) and you'll see the same connection (the order is just reversed - Fb-Bb) As you can see, the keys for each subsequent partial scale is shifting by fifths. (The same interval you go by when naming the sharps in key signatures. (Flats go by fourths)

That's why you may see a D Major scale in the Key of G (by fifths) or the Bb Major scale in the key of Eb (by fourths). This is what the Circle of Fifths displays though it's easier to see it in a linear fashion.

I wonder if this was actually Mike's question? If he were clearer about the question, perhaps, there'd be a clearer answer. Personally, I think if he takes in what written here, he may get the answer, he's looking for. As he said long day, but hopefully it'l get ckeared up,

Russ I fail to understand why you are addressing me. I personally have a
pretty good grasp of theory.

I can only hope that Mike understands your offerings.

My opinion is that he would gain more theoritical insight should he post the transcription
and ask a precise question about what is written and/or what he is questioning.

I took a guess at what he was trying to say or ask....now I know I really don't know.

Until I do I really have nothing else to offer.

spacey


Russ I fail to understand why you are addressing me. I personally have a
pretty good grasp of theory.

I can only hope that Mike understands your offerings.

My opinion is that he would gain more theoritical insight should he post the transcription
and ask a precise question about what is written and/or what he is questioning.

I took a guess at what he was trying to say or ask....now I know I really don't know.

Until I do I really have nothing else to offer.

I apologize for having quoted you as that was more towards, Mike. I'm doing the same thing, you are: guessing! I'm totally with you on what would really help here. Again, my apologizes for the misquote. I wasn't aiming anything you, personally.

All's cool Rus.
Mike should be back Friday and maybe we can help him....that is our intentions.

Best regards,
Michael

spacey

My opinion is that he would gain more theoritical insight should he post the transcription
and ask a precise question about what is written and/or what he is questioning.

This ^

It also can depend on the genre, like if it's a blues tune.

Hi everyone,

I got back early but I'm not much to look at.


Anyways, I'm sorry to frustrate you all, but I thank you for all the help you have offered.



Here's the piano part I transcribed to MIDI and am playing along too:




Most browsers have a right click option to view the image separately... if you do that the image will seem larger and easier to read.




best regards,
mike

I didn't look at it for long but those seem to be just extra frilly ornamentation notes. Don't have my theory pants on but I'm assuming if I dissected it it would be Mixo-Blues. Ain't no key sig that covers that.

A good way to look at it is with scale chords.

In the key of G major the following scale chords are available:

I       G Maj 7
II      A Min 7
III     B Min 7
IV     C Maj 7
V      D Dom 7
VI     E Min 7
VII    F#Dim


In the Key of D Major the following scale chords are present


I       D Maj 7
II      E Min 7
III     F#Min 7
IV     G Maj 7
V      A Dom 7
VI     B Min 7
VII    C# Dim


Notice how there are a few common chords with their bass notes. Notably G Maj 7, B Min 7, E Min 7. F# dim and F#Min may work as a substitution chord too. Notice how all the melody notes from the key of D except C# are the same as well. And even C# is not a bad note either in terms of the key of G as it is the #11 (#4) which could also sound quite OK. That just has that nice Lydian sound.

Mike this might explain why many melody notes and a handful of chords from D will fit into the G Major tonality. But that piece of music that you have put up is really in the key of G and everything on it relates to that so why are you even talking about D major melody notes and chords in the first place? Unless you are interested in getting a slight interest happening by combining two keys like that and that is always an interesting thing to try and perhaps do.

As Beeps has mentioned too any notes that fall out of the range of G Major are often just stepping tones or augmenting tones. You will see they do not dwell on outside notes for long. Any note can be used to embellish a melody. You do not have to go into a great theory tirade in order to explain it either. It is as simple as just putting it in if it sounds good as Miles Davis once said. If it sounds good then do it. And yes keys that are related or spaced by 4ths and 5ths have interesting relationships for sure.