Beepster


hmm... now this might show my lack of formal training but why exactly do both staves have a bass clef? I've never seen that.

For two reasons:

1) When you have a tune in which both hands are very involved (ie: A Bach Fugue - and you'll see on the sheet music), or for instance Beethoven's Fur Elise and Moonlight Sonata, the left hand doesn't always stay or rarely doesn't it go into the lower registers of the treble clef. This is the same reason the reverse is true where you see two treble clefs - you don't want anything too high in the bass clef again if the hands or very busy.

Having two of the same clefs also tells you which hand to use (unless cross-beaming is used)

For a much simpler take the tune "Three Blind Mice."

Treble Clef: E-D-C / E-D-C / G-F-E / G-F-E
Bass Clef: C-B-G / C-B-G / E-D-C / E-D-C

This isn't too bad because we don't have many notes if any that are too high or too low in either clef and if you decide to play with both hands, you know which hand does what. This is different than going C-G-C ... in the bass clef's lower registers where it's obvious what hand does what.

Having said this, let's use that exact C-G-C ... line, but move the notes from the treble clef to the bass clef - in the same register. The upper notes would be too high (ie: The G being moved from the second line in the treble clef, is now on the third ledger line above the the bass clef. Not many want to read notes that high up or that far down if this were the treble clef. For instance, the D (a m7 below Middle C) is also on the third line in the bass clef (G-B-D]/B]-F-A), so why not put it there? Answer: You can, but if the tne were written for the bass clef only.

This is why we have octava or 8va + 8vb renditions of said clefs because again, no performer wants to read notes too high or lown in a piece of music. 8va = means play an octave above what it is written (and the symbol spells it out: 8v = Octave + a = above) Likewise, with 8vb - an octave below (8v = Octave, b = below). Though we have the ability to transpose music in software, either are both symbols are needed in written music - even though if what it's written for has the obvious range (IOW, people take that for granted) Sometimes you may see 15va or 15vb = two octaves above or below what's written (and 15 is correct as there are 15 tones within two octaves - not 16)

Which leads into orchestration and writing out for instruments considering their ranges. I won't get into that, but know that is why.

Here's an example of what's happens when you evoke an octava clef: Take the C Major scale starting on Middle C. When there's no sign, it sounds and is played as written. (Middle C up to the space between B and D in the treble clef) We can get the same thing in the bass clef, but we must also evoke the 8va sign. The common misconception is the "reservation." ie: 8va for the treble clef, 8vb for the bass clef. While this how such is seen, you can swap which what we'll do here: 

8va (Bass Clef) Same C Major scale starting on the space between B and D; however, we'll still end up on Middle C. When it is played, due to the 8va sign, it'll sound like it was when we wrote it in the treble clef - on the bass clef, but an octave higher If we started from Middle C in the bass clef - you'd choke like I'm about to explain using the treble clef below:

Going back to the Treble Clef for a moment, let's move the C Major scale up an octave (Middle C +12), We're already high enough, so this will end badly! 

The space above B (Treble clef) is C: here we go: Line (D), Space (E), Line (F), Space (G), Ledger Line (A), (You choking yet?) Space Above Ledger Line (B), Ledger Line #2 (C). I doubt you want this to continue.

Likewise, if this were in the bass clef (We'll be going in the opposite direction here) Starting on the second space (C), Line (B), Space (A), Line (G), Space (below staff) - (F), Ledger Line #1 - (E), Space below (D), Ledger Line #2 (C), Space (B), Ledger Line #3 (A) etc ... Most players don't wanna read bass notes below A (There's G, occasionally - Space below A) nor, do they wish to read two ledger lines above F (treble clef - this note would be C); therefore, evoke the 8vb sign. Note: The can be some low notes (barring a 8/15va + vb clef sign, but you must instinctively know or at least have a reference point. However, to save you more time, here's a short cut: For every note on a line, the note an octave above (8va) and below (8vb), will be on a space. For every note on a space, the 8va and 8vb notes will be on a line. (See above examples using the C scale) For  two octaves (15va + vb) notes will stay put (line on line, space on space.

This is helpful when you get into deciphering intervals - especially large ones (above the octave). This is called Octave Displacement which is what the 8 and 15va + vb symbols are doing.

To sum up, if you see two clefs, they are saying: "Which hand plays which line (when in the same register)," or they are keeping ledger lines to a minimum, so visibility is obtained for the performer. It isn't necessary to stick the octava signs to the clefs, but it is done so for the same reason. To maintain visibility for the performer (and prevent alot of unnecessary counting)

 I hope this helps, Beeps!

I always enjoy your posts Rus... even if it takes me a while to parse them out. ;-)

Beepster


I always enjoy your posts Rus... even if it takes me a while to parse them out. ;-)

Thanks, Beeps! (Not sure how 90% ended up bolded. I'll fix it.) You do understand (after parsing of course) Of course, all of what I wrote could be better understood through pictures.

EDIT: Fix'd!

When I'm settled down after cramming my brain with Sonar/production stuff I'm going to scan the old college theory book my friend gave me years ago, photoshop out all the answers some dum dum wrote directly into the book then work through the entire thing again. I read it through and understood the bulk of it but didn't do all the exercises. It's pretty much designed to make solving musical stuff the traditional way second nature. I currently do things based on my own observations and methods which sync up to traditional theory but if I intend to teach at a higher level or get accepted into the conservatory obviously I need to get all that stuff locked down.

Cheers.

Oh and I get the premise now in regards to handling various tessituras (just learned that word today... lol). For that specific blurb I was just trying to visualize it all which is difficult early in the morning... and well I'm screwing around on some news sites before digging back into the X2 manual.

Too much stuff to learn.

Beepster


When I'm settled down after cramming my brain with Sonar/production stuff I'm going to scan the old college theory book my friend gave me years ago, photoshop out all the answers some dum dum wrote directly into the book then work through the entire thing again. I read it through and understood the bulk of it but didn't do all the exercises. It's pretty much designed to make solving musical stuff the traditional way second nature. I currently do things based on my own observations and methods which sync up to traditional theory but if I intend to teach at a higher level or get accepted into the conservatory obviously I need to get all that stuff locked down.

Cheers.

Can I meet this person? j/k This sounds like in the discussion I had with Mom at dinner where she said someone has "less than desirable relative pitch!" I couldn't even SMH! Yes, Mom made it sound THAT bad!! (And she knows what Perfect (Absolute) Pitch is! What's that tell you other than being graced with a musical family?) You know, I made some suggestion (on another forum) about how to teach Ist graders (7 and up), the guitar. Naturally, I went from the piano perspective, but I noted how coming from that angle can and does help also knowing how difficult it is to transition from one to the other (my next oldest sister and piano and guitar and can't stand when I give theory lessons which I plan on giving Mom! I've already gave her a taste, but eventually we'll sit down and get into it! She's very eager!)


But yeah, that's what music is. A carefully crafted and wonderful puzzle! We just have to figure out how to arrange the pieces to come up with many different pictures!

I was highly discouraged from becoming a musician by my family to the point guitars would be taken away as a punishment. They also canceled my guitar lessons right when I was about to begin classical training. Jerks.

"More than one way to skin a cat"
Perspective.

Mike I think the approach to understanding and applying theory is
what determines how good the willing student progresses.

The "lessons" can easily progress much to fast. What I mean is it easier
to "know" and apply the information in ones playing.

Because of what I believe your state of mind may be I'd like to offer the following- although
I think you know...it's just not organized thoughts.

The "harmonized major scale". It is everything that is being discussed.

When one is looking for or trying to determine a "key center" the harmonized major scale
is what they are looking for.

When one is applying "modal" ideas they are playing/thinking multiple harmonized scales.

If one doesn't get a handle on those two thoughts then things can get really confusing quickly.

Now I'll try to give an example(s)....that you can play/ apply so it can be heard.
For this know that this process may envolve more than one "key" or "harmonized major scale" but the main focus is on one key. I'll use the key of "C" and from a lead player point
of view.

First the scale tones- C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
Then one harmonizes the tones to generate the "Harmonized Major Scale"
Cmaj7-Dm7-Em7-Fmaj7-G7-Am7-Bm7b5-Cmaj7

Diatonic lead playing would be all natural notes of the key.
One would easily realize that no "modal" or "alterations" are applied.

Modal playing applied to the key of "C"-  keep this simple and limited until you are certain
you understand.

Understanding the "Harmonized Major Scale" - How does one really know what key they are in if one can play (modal) notes from different keys? Well now, that is the confusing part isn't it? That is exactly why one should limit the theory to one step at a time.

Remember- rules are only good until you know how to break them.

There are only two chords that tell you exactly what the key may be.
The 5th and the 7th - In "C" that is the "G7" and the Bm7b5.

If we know that is the current rule then it stands to reason that all the other
chords could be in other keys. So take inventory....
There are 2 majors and 3 minors-
2 majors are the 1st and the 4th - Cmaj and Fmaj.
3 minors are the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th- Dm, Em, Am

Knowing that there are two majors we can know that there are 2 different keys that each
one could be in.
Knowing that there are three minors we can know that there are 3 different keys that each
could be in.

MAN! That is COOL!

If you're still with me....now you can do some modal playing and really here the value of it.

An organized approach and you will be able to keep track of the knowledge and the sound.

So one at a time....
The "Cmaj" .....first we know it can be in two keys.
It can be in the 1st position as the tonic or it can be in the 4th.
If we play over it thinking of it as in the first position then it's simply playing in the key of "C".
But if we play over it thinking that it as being in the 4th position....well now we have modal
thoughts....we no longer think "key of C".....we think key of "G".
C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C

So now I can practice playing leads over a Cmaj chord thinking of two different keys...C and G. The F# being the difference.

If that is completely understood then one can move to the next major, the 4th in "C"
which is the Fmaj and quickly determine it could be the tonic, 1st position, key of F or it could be in the 4th position, key of C.
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F  .....Bb note being the difference.

This exact train of thought is applied to the 3 minor chords...Dm-Em-Am...each being found
in three different keys.

MAN! That is a lot of keys that a lead player may be playing in over ONE key ( C in this )

Cmaj-  could play in C or G
Dm  -     could play in keys of C, Bb, F 
Em    -   could play in keys of C, D, G
Fmaj-   could play in keys of C , F
G7---C
Am -     could play in keys of C, G, F
Bm7b5---C

Now if you want to ...give each one of them their Greek names.

I'm at work and did this really fast...please correct me if/as needed.

Beepster


I was highly discouraged from becoming a musician by my family to the point guitars would be taken away as a punishment. They also canceled my guitar lessons right when I was about to begin classical training. Jerks.

Well, we all know what they say about the business - especially, in the composing/producing/performing part of it, but I think taking your gift away was abit too far. (Now, this wasn't because you were annoying them, was it? And be honest! haha!) I'd like to get into composing myself, but knowing I need a failsafe as well. (I bet this is what your parents were saying, but they should never discourage you from doing what you love)


And have you read Danny's story? Not sure what thread it's in, but long story short: His friend who didn't think he had it in him, showed Danny and quite a few others a thing or two!


When there's a will, there's a way or there is a way, but there must be a will.

Their angle was musicians are all godless drug addled heathens. I couldn't get away from that house fast enough.