Well said spacey. 

Beepster


Their angle was musicians are all godless drug addled heathens. I couldn't get away from that house fast enough.

They must have grown up around that time or they've somehow been exposed to that music inadvertently. (Black Sabbath, Nirvana, Savage Garden, Alice and Chains, etc.) That's not on your collection, is it? "Smells Like They're Regretting Their Teen/Young Adult Years." (Don't tell them I said that! :P)


Of course, there's nothing wrong with a song growing on you! I couldn't stand Evanescence (maybe even Paramore) because my sister played them constantly (Evy especially), but I love them and I'd be a hypocrite to complain since I've done the same as well.


Anyway, I hope that grasping theory and cultivating your classical guitar skill pays off! If it happened to Danny's friend ...

timidi


Well said spacey. 

*Echoes* Yeah, what a bang up job for rushing! (That's doesn't happen very often if ever)

Thank you Tim and Rus.

Thanks spacey and everyone.

I'm lurking but my mind is elsewhere.

:-)

Be back soon.


best regards,
mike

This thread has proved most educational and enlightening to me as a completely self taught musician, i.e theory and everything else.

Thank you to Mike and all who responded.

I'd love to have more theory discussions on here once I'm "done" with all this tech studying. I've got a special way of looking at things. It all fits perfectly and chatting with traditionally trained fellows like Rus is always a little slice of music nerd pleasure.

 Yes very cool thread. Thanks for connecting some dots I've never considered. Thanks guys

spacey


 

Make sure you understand that D mixolydian contains the same notes as the key of "G". (which you know doesn't include a C#)
Should you "think" key of "D" then don't think mixolydian.

Thanks.

I understand what you are saying here... I know it didn't look like I did.


I understand that Modes are based on a relative key and that modes are not a key.


I don't fully understand the nuanced implications of misusing the terminology but I will try to use the terminology appropriately as I can see how it causes confusion for both myself and anyone attempting to help discuss it.






Off to the big post.


best,
mike

spacey


"More than one way to skin a cat"
Perspective.

Mike I think the approach to understanding and applying theory is
what determines how good the willing student progresses. 

Thanks!  

The "lessons" can easily progress much to fast. What I mean is it easier
to "know" and apply the information in ones playing.

I've gotten the cart in front of the horse.

Because of what I believe your state of mind may be I'd like to offer the following- although
I think you know...it's just not organized thoughts.

The "harmonized major scale". It is everything that is being discussed.

When one is looking for or trying to determine a "key center" the harmonized major scale
is what they are looking for. 

I have a very basic understanding of harmonized scales.

 
When one is applying "modal" ideas they are playing/thinking multiple harmonized scales.

Incredibly helpful insight. THANKS!

If one doesn't get a handle on those two thoughts then things can get really confusing quickly. 

Just that little bit helped a bunch.

 

Now I'll try to give an example(s)....that you can play/ apply so it can be heard.
For this know that this process may envolve more than one "key" or "harmonized major scale" but the main focus is on one key. I'll use the key of "C" and from a lead player point
of view.

First the scale tones- C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
Then one harmonizes the tones to generate the "Harmonized Major Scale"
Cmaj7-Dm7-Em7-Fmaj7-G7-Am7-Bm7b5-Cmaj7 

I started playing guitar as a simple chord strummer (open and the 4 main barre forms) so I have some very basic experience thinking about this.

 

Diatonic lead playing would be all natural notes of the key.
One would easily realize that no "modal" or "alterations" are applied.

Modal playing applied to the key of "C"-  keep this simple and limited until you are certain
you understand.

Understanding the "Harmonized Major Scale" - How does one really know what key they are in if one can play (modal) notes from different keys? Well now, that is the confusing part isn't it? That is exactly why one should limit the theory to one step at a time. 

I feel as if I have been playing beyond my knowledge or awareness for a long long time.

 

Remember- rules are only good until you know how to break them. 

Or, in my case... know how to hear them. :-)

 

There are only two chords that tell you exactly what the key may be.
The 5th and the 7th - In "C" that is the "G7" and the Bm7b5. 

I see that you got the two chords from the harmonized scale... I guess you have to learn to recognize them as the 5th and 7th when looking at a sequence of chords? It seems like that requires a lot of experience and applied knowledge to be able to do that.

 

If we know that is the current rule then it stands to reason that all the other
chords could be in other keys.

The idea that the other chords in a Harmonized scale can be in other keys is a revolutionary realization for me. 

 So take inventory....
There are 2 majors and 3 minors-
2 majors are the 1st and the 4th - Cmaj and Fmaj.
3 minors are the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th- Dm, Em, Am

Knowing that there are two majors we can know that there are 2 different keys that each
one could be in.
Knowing that there are three minors we can know that there are 3 different keys that each
could be in.

MAN! That is COOL!

If you're still with me....now you can do some modal playing and really here the value of it. 

I'm barely hanging on. 

 

An organized approach and you will be able to keep track of the knowledge and the sound.

So one at a time....
The "Cmaj" .....first we know it can be in two keys.
It can be in the 1st position as the tonic or it can be in the 4th.
If we play over it thinking of it as in the first position then it's simply playing in the key of "C".
But if we play over it thinking that it as being in the 4th position....well now we have modal
thoughts....we no longer think "key of C".....we think key of "G".
C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C

So now I can practice playing leads over a Cmaj chord thinking of two different keys...C and G. The F# being the difference. 

I can follow the mechanics of that.

 

If that is completely understood then one can move to the next major, the 4th in "C"
which is the Fmaj and quickly determine it could be the tonic, 1st position, key of F or it could be in the 4th position, key of C.
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F  .....Bb note being the difference.

This exact train of thought is applied to the 3 minor chords...Dm-Em-Am...each being found
in three different keys.

MAN! That is a lot of keys that a lead player may be playing in over ONE key ( C in this )
Cmaj-  could play in C or G
Dm  -     could play in keys of C, Bb, F 
Em    -   could play in keys of C, D, G
Fmaj-   could play in keys of C , F
G7---C
Am -     could play in keys of C, G, F
Bm7b5---C

Now if you want to ...give each one of them their Greek names.

I thought it would be easy to apply the greek names.... but that's a lot of thinking. I not really hanging on at all here. I keep thinking I know what you mean... but then I realize I am faking it.

I'm at work and did this really fast...please correct me if/as needed.

I recall a conversation I had with a friend who was going off to NYU to get a Masters in large ensemble Jazz chart arranging.

He told me that he was coming to a realization that songs didn't have a "key" but rather moved rhythmically from key to key along with the chord changes. It wasn't a definitive statement... but rather a just casually shared insight.


I felt I couldn't get what he was saying at the time but I've always come back to the idea... wondering what he meant.


It seems like you have just explained what he was trying to explain.




Would you suggest that as I play by ear with a progression of chords that represent some harmonized scale that I am drifting through many different keys? That's what it feels like to me as I can sense the tonal center shift and then I play with a new emphasis.


Is my idea that songs have a "key" too simplistic and preventing me from making good use of the insights you have shared here? Perhaps I'm thinking about key with regard to melody when I should be thinking of song keys with regards to harmonized scales?

I feel as if I am not even sure how to ask the questions I need to be asking. :-)



Thanks very much. This has been helpful.







best regards,
mike