• Techniques 
  • D major scale melody on a G major staff (p.6)
1/15/2013
spacey
deleted.
I feel I was adding confusion.
 
It is very hard for me to recommend how you should proceed.
 
I think theory may best be learned where it can be applied and discussed about.
 
I really think it starts to look like a bunch of hard to read BS on a forum. I do hope you
understand.
If you're serious about learning it I'd recommend finding a teacher to spend some time with.
I thought it was worth the money and effort when I was young. I still do.


:-)

I got a chance to read it first.

You not only helped me but you also helped a few others who posted thanks as well.

What can I say? Thanks for the help.

I took theory in college. I got A's and didn't understand any of it.

I brought in a songwriter song as an assignment that fascinated the instructor... she had a phd in piano and couldn't figure out what I was doing with the chord changes and the song form. She even cajoled me into playing for the class as an example of stuff that sounds familiar or conventional but is hard to describe with theory. Some of the traditionally trained students told me to keep at it. :-S

I still have that song in my head some where. People always seem to enjoy it and I've never known anything but how to play it.

I've never found a music teacher who could figure out why I couldn't figure out what they found easy to remember or understand.

You were one of the first persons that made some effort to try to figure out what I was thinking and then try to help clarify things a bit.

I thought that was pretty cool.

best regards,
mike
1/15/2013
drewfx1
mike_mccue
Is my idea that songs have a "key" too simplistic and preventing me from making good use of the insights you have shared here? Perhaps I'm thinking about key with regard to melody when I should be thinking of song keys with regards to harmonized scales?

I feel as if I am not even sure how to ask the questions I need to be asking. :-)
Some of this depends on genre.

In a major key blues you are likely never going to play a major 7th interval, so you might be playing mixolydian over each (major) chord. Does this mean the key center is changing as you move from I-IV-V? Or is it all in the same key, but you are playing some notes that don't fit the key? Does it really matter?

In jazz theory, you tend to think less in terms of "key" than in matching the scales used to the chord changes. Jazz tends to have lots of chord substitutions where you're going to get notes that don't fit the key. But the chord tones for any given chord will outline a number of possible scales and you might use any of them, though some might work better with the previous or next chord better than others.

Essentially you can think of it as playing the chord tones plus some additional notes. For a scale with 7 different notes, a full 7th chord will tell you 4 of these 7 notes. The key, or the next or preceding chord - or your own creativity or desire - will tell you the other 3 notes. And you can also add chromatic passing tones as well - you just wouldn't want to hang out on those notes or play them on strong beats.

And keep in mind that the chord tones that "don't fit" are going to be the ones that specifically add color and that you thus might want to emphasize (unless you're the bass player that is ).
1/15/2013
Beepster
Yeah... the modes are just the framework. Lots of flavor in between it all. That's why using chromatics to slide in between that framework is a good thing to mess around with. That combined with omitting certain steps of the frame work creates all sorts of new flavors. A perfect example of this that we all know and love... the minor blues scale. It could be viewed as starting with the Aeolian mode or the Dorian mode cooked down to the minor pentatonic and some extra semi tones tossed in. I tend to lean more toward treating it as the Dorian mode but I don't necessarily lock myself in.

At least that's how I look at it. I mess around like that with all the modes and many times in lesser explored variations. Then putting in quirky key changes makes it even more interesting. It's fun. :-)
1/17/2013
Zenwit
drewfx1


And keep in mind that the chord tones that "don't fit" are going to be the ones that specifically add color and that you thus might want to emphasize (unless you're the bass player that is ).
Interesting.  I took guitar lessons a long time ago from a fellow that had spent a year at Berklee.  He told me that one approach they used was to sort of turn the theory upside down and teach from a standpoint of "avoid tones" in musical styles.  He showed me their take on four types of scalar / chordal tones: those that fit perfectly but aren't interesting (1,3,5 scale tones) those that convey mood ( flat 3rd, 9th, 11th, etc) those that lead and / or add tension (sus, Maj 7) and those that, unless you're Ornette Coleman, will send people running for the exits.  Ornette is pretty colorful and interesting but not to everyone's taste since he usually uses 12 of the tones in each song.  The simpler the audience or your project the more tones you avoid.
 
   
I've really enjoyed this thread. 

1/17/2013
Beepster
Here's a neat little musical math brain tweaker.

Take the diatonic Major scale and map your neck (7 modes). 

Now look at the notes in between the notes.

They create the five pentatonic modes.

;-)
1/17/2013
Jeff Evans
drewfx1....In jazz theory, you tend to think less in terms of "key" than in matching the scales used to the chord changes.

Incorrect, in Jazz theory key centres are extremely important and vital. Especially when playing horizontally (melodically) through chord changes. What does happen in Jazz tunes is that keys do not remain constant and many keys are often employed within a single tune. eg a II V in one key then another II V in another key then maybe a III VI II V I in another key then  back to the first key for another II V etc. So when analysing these tunes, where all the key centres actually are is very important in terms of improvising.

One does not actually play vertically as drewfx1 suggests. (eg using the correct scale according to chord tones) That only sounds like someone is doing scale practice over chords, the finest jazz improvisers do not do that. Of course it is important to know what scale choices there over any given chord but ultimately that information is used to keep things in check while you are playing horizontally. There is no time to think too much when you are soloing.

I would say that drewfx1 is not an experienced Jazz musician. And drew if you are playing vertically you need to get out of that mode and start thinking melodically (horizontally) through a Jazz solo, not vertically. For this to work key centres are vital. It is also much easier! 
1/17/2013
The Band19
if  you're playing in Gmajor, technically you should play lead in Eminor. E is the "relative minor" to the Gmajor.
1/17/2013
drewfx1
Jeff Evans


drewfx1....In jazz theory, you tend to think less in terms of "key" than in matching the scales used to the chord changes.

Incorrect, in Jazz theory key centres are extremely important and vital. Especially when playing horizontally (melodically) through chord changes. What does happen in Jazz tunes is that keys do not remain constant and many keys are often employed within a single tune. eg a II V in one key then another II V in another key then maybe a III VI II V I in another key then  back to the first key for another II V etc. So when analysing these tunes, where all the key centres actually are is very important in terms of improvising.

One does not actually play vertically as drewfx1 suggests. (eg using the correct scale according to chord tones) That only sounds like someone is doing scale practice over chords, the finest jazz improvisers do not do that. Of course it is important to know what scale choices there over any given chord but ultimately that information is used to keep things in check while you are playing horizontally. There is no time to think too much when you are soloing.

I would say that drewfx1 is not an experienced Jazz musician. And drew if you are playing vertically you need to get out of that mode and start thinking melodically (horizontally) through a Jazz solo, not vertically. For this to work key centres are vital. It is also much easier! 

There are different ways of looking at or approaching the same things. Sometime different approaches lead to the same place; sometimes they lead elsewhere. Perhaps you are one who makes the mistake of confusing knowledge of the approach you happen to know and use with "the only (right) approach" 

If you open your mind to the idea that others may know things, you might learn something. Here's one place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord-scale_system

1/17/2013
Jeff Evans
I am very open to many approaches and I do believe in people who certainly know a lot more than me theory wise. I have been taught by some of the best. I certainly know more theory than most (and you) that is for sure. I already know very well the stuff in the link you provided. Frank Gambale was one person  who taught me a lot and believe me he knows a lot! 

But even so I don't let the theory knowledge dictate to me what I should be composing, that is a mistake. I still prefer to think of the melodies and harmony first then analyse it and see where it all sits and then think about what the other options and possibilities are.

The problem with theory I think is there needs to be a more methodical way of learning it. The problem is when you get people who have no form to their explanations and just sprout out a whole lot of stuff without thinking about what comes before and after etc. That just leads to confusion. 

You have been caught out with incorrect knowledge. Key centres are vital in any piece of music period. They cannot be ignored.

Music theory is not similar to sound engineering techniques which can be delivered in almost more random ways although there are some great approaches that work with that too.


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