They can be ignored. 

It's music Jeff, no need to be so dogmatic.

If you ignore the key centres in the music then what you play will sound like it is ignoring the key centres. And if that is the desired result then yes you can do it for sure. But I believe learn the rules first before you decide to break them and knowing about key centres is part of the rules.

In fact if you have a musician who plays by ear and does not know the theory involved or the key centres what you will most likely hear is something that actually sounds good. But in its own way it is following the key centres without knowing it. The ear is guiding the musician in that sense. 

But knowing where the key centres are is better because you know in advance when they are going to happen rather than hearing something in a new key for a bar or two before realising the music has suddenly dropped a semitone say.


They can be ignored......Yeah right, if you are playing solos over Chick Corea Electric Band tunes you had better know where the key centres are, know what I mean.. 

That's cool Jeff, like the famous Charlie Parker quote- "learn the rules and then forget about them".

But when you say learn all the rules- well how many people know ALL the rules.  Just listening to a thousand songs is enough education for some people.

I like guys who can just bowl up, plug in, and kick ass. Some guys just know how to make great noise without bothering about key centres or VU meters.

But in reality they do bowl up and plug in and make great music. At least they ask or listen out for the key centres. I suppose it is one of the first things one must figure out pretty quickly in the situation. 

More people are likely to know about VU meters than most things. LOL ! 

Yeah, people understand stuff without learning the theory Jeff. 

Jeff, did you bother to look at the tune in question? It's not cycling through keys in ii-V-I or anything like that.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Gmaj Gmin Dmaj B7 
IV iv I VI7
Emin Gmaj Dmaj Amaj
ii IV I V

Key of D major.

Now we have an obvious problem if someone's starting out with theory and looking at it in terms of key - 2 of the first 4 chords don't fit the key.

Now do you want people to look at it in terms of key changes there? Should they play B mixolydian over the B7 (from D major/Ionian leading into E dorian)? 

Or should they stay in key and play a B natural (major 3rd) over the Gmin chord and D natural (minor 3rd) over the B7 (Bmaj) chord?

Or you could stay in D major and account for the notes in those chords that don't fit the key (Bb in the Gmin and D# in the B7). If you take a chord scale approach and look at the preceding and following chords (as I previously wrote) there is a likelihood that it will take you in this direction - even if you aren't thinking in terms of the key.

Otherwise you have to explain what's going on with those chords in terms of more advanced theory. And again with the next progression.


And as to my supposedly getting "caught". You're just missing it entirely - you don't have to think in terms of key to play in key. Whether you think in terms of key or in terms of scales, if the scales fit the key anyway, then it's all the same - you're just looking at it from a different angle. 

You can think in terms of key of D major, a D major scale, D Ionian mode, or D E F# G A B C# D. It's all the same thing.

And you might look at what I wrote:

Essentially you can think of it as playing the chord tones plus some additional notes. For a scale with 7 different notes, a full 7th chord will tell you 4 of these 7 notes. The key, or the next or preceding chord - or your own creativity or desire - will tell you the other 3 notes.

Don't jump on me just because I'm trying to lay out some very BASIC ideas about how you can use theory. 

Sheesh!

drewfx1


Jeff, did you bother to look at the tune in question? It's not cycling through keys in ii-V-I or anything like that.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Gmaj Gmin Dmaj B7 
IV iv I VI7
Emin Gmaj Dmaj Amaj
ii IV I V

Key of D major.

Now we have an obvious problem if someone's starting out with theory and looking at it in terms of key - 2 of the first 4 chords don't fit the key.

Now do you want people to look at it in terms of key changes there? Should they play B mixolydian over the B7 (from D major/Ionian leading into E dorian)? 

Or should they stay in key and play a B natural (major 3rd) over the Gmin chord and D natural (minor 3rd) over the B7 (Bmaj) chord?

Or you could stay in D major and account for the notes in those chords that don't fit the key (Bb in the Gmin and D# in the B7). If you take a chord scale approach and look at the preceding and following chords (as I previously wrote) there is a likelihood that it will take you in this direction - even if you aren't thinking in terms of the key.

Otherwise you have to explain what's going on with those chords in terms of more advanced theory. And again with the next progression.


And as to my supposedly getting "caught". You're just missing it entirely - you don't have to think in terms of key to play in key. Whether you think in terms of key or in terms of scales, if the scales fit the key anyway, then it's all the same - you're just looking at it from a different angle. 

You can think in terms of key of D major, a D major scale, D Ionian mode, or D E F# G A B C# D. It's all the same thing.

And you might look at what I wrote:

Essentially you can think of it as playing the chord tones plus some additional notes. For a scale with 7 different notes, a full 7th chord will tell you 4 of these 7 notes. The key, or the next or preceding chord - or your own creativity or desire - will tell you the other 3 notes.

Don't jump on me just because I'm trying to lay out some very BASIC ideas about how you can use theory. 

Sheesh!

That Gmin that "didn't fit", does fit as iv is a borrowed chord (from D minor). And how does G Major (IV) not fit the key of D? That B7? Classically, that's not "permitted." More than likely that is a V/ii which precedes ii (B7-Em). Now, you can play notes walking to the target chord tone as long as you graze the chord tone or you'll get some dissonance. It may be desired, but there's the "Inside-Out, Back In Again" guideline!


However, given the last portion of you're statement, you're marring the line between modes and scales/keys - they are distinct entities! This is the most common mistake! Scales deal with seeing notes - modes deal with seeing sounds! Yes, the parent scale as a reference is used to figure out modes, but they're still pretty different; yet, very easy to confuse and blur. I believe this has to do with how modes are traditionally taught. If only they were taught by using the parent scale and altered requisite notes; however, that's one of the "broken rules," we learn later.

You are right in that songs do come in a modal variety as well; however, how can you say that there is no sense of key when a I or perhaps a V pops up? Clearly, you stated key in the above progression, but you could have said: D Ionian. Why didn't you? Its probably because Ionian (and Aeolian) are naturally picked up by the ear since keys come in these two flavors (Major/minor). I get it. To improv over a Dorian vamp (ii7/7b5/ii9-V7/V7alt/V13) one may think Ionian or Major), but sticking with one or the other does avoid confusion; yet, don't play the I unless you then what the Ionian vibe.

I've had and continue to have "slightly different POV" discussions on iBM, but even folks there say that too much theory can impede on wonderful musical ideas. One can just make noise, but not knowing how and/or why won't change that it's still noise. Even if it's good noise. I don't think Jeff or any theory student here is pushing one definite way and how can that happen since we were taught many of the same methods, different ones as well. I also would not say that Jeff jumped down your throat by pointing out some mistakes. I've made and still make mistakes, too. I think the issue is giving not necessarily too much advice, but throwing ot all the different ways to skin a cat. If a person is unable to grasp one way, it may not be easier to grasp four other methods - especially when they aren't all that different.

Music is very ambiguous and it is its ambiguity that makes it special - even when you throw all the theory out the window (Don't or it's just atrocious!). You don't have to know everything or sound like you do, but you gotta know a little something. So, no, you're not wrong, but neither is Jeff; however, he does sound a bit more knowledgeable on the subject. (And this is such a good thread. Let's not ruin it!)

Rus,

I agree 100% with everything you said - except the part about making mistakes (please note that I said that the Gmin iv didn't fit the key, not the Gmaj IV).

And I actually I knew I was going to get in trouble with someone for talking about modes in the same breath as scales/keys, so I guess that was just really dumb on my part. The point I was trying to make is that you can arrive at the exact same place from different points of view - the notes in the key of D major =  the notes in the D major scale =  the notes in D Ionian. No they aren't the same thing. But they are. And yes if you think about things in terms of one thing it might lead you to a different place. Or not.


I think what you guys might be missing is I'm (apparently very, very, very poorly) trying to simplify things for the folks who are new to theory and in the process leaving way too much out.

Personally I don't think this is a particularly good tune to analyze in terms of classical theory for beginners. In my experience, you don't normally start introductory theory lessons when the 2nd chord is a borrowed one (though some might characterize it differently). IMHO, it's #$#$%& confusing to beginners.
Or look at it this way:

Do we really want to argue about emphasizing the key regarding a song that's notated (according to me, but what do I know?) in the wrong key?


But what I'm actually most curious about is what you guys would play over the chord changes in question? I know how I might approach it (and why). But I'm curious as to how others would approach it.

drewfx1


Rus,

I agree 100% with everything you said - except the part about making mistakes (please note that I said that the Gmin iv didn't fit the key, not the Gmaj IV).

And I actually I knew I was going to get in trouble with someone for talking about modes in the same breath as scales/keys, so I guess that was just really dumb on my part. The point I was trying to make is that you can arrive at the exact same place from different points of view - the notes in the key of D major =  the notes in the D major scale =  the notes in D Ionian. No they aren't the same thing. But they are. And yes if you think about things in terms of one thing it might lead you to a different place. Or not.


I think what you guys might be missing is I'm (apparently very, very, very poorly) trying to simplify things for the folks who are new to theory and in the process leaving way too much out.

Personally I don't think this is a particularly good tune to analyze in terms of classical theory for beginners. In my experience, you don't normally start introductory theory lessons when the 2nd chord is a borrowed one (though some might characterize it differently). IMHO, it's #$#$%& confusing to beginners.
Or look at it this way:

Do we really want to argue about emphasizing the key regarding a song that's notated (according to me, but what do I know?) in the wrong key?


But what I'm actually most curious about is what you guys would play over the chord changes in question? I know how I might approach it (and why). But I'm curious as to how others would approach it.

But when starting theory (including jazz theory, correct me, Jeff) -- one doesn't usually start with modes. You gotta get the classical stuff before the jazz stuff. I didn't say learn every nook and cranny of classical, but jazz didn't just uproot itself.


And no, I rather not get into an argument regarding a notated key (which I wonder why'd it would in fact be wrong? You said it was D. Either it is or it isn't.)


Now, here's my question: What kind of theory are we talking about here because obviously jazz and classical are quite different, but perhaps this is semantics and pedantic.


Anyway, given how they are just triads (except for the B7), you could play color tones (diatonic + altered), even with the B7. Of course, there are "avoid tones," but wile you don't wanna throw any note any and everywhere, you don't just wanna run scales.


What I'm hearing is perhaps instead of triads, the sequence would probably sound better if it consisted of sevenths or higher:

GM7-Gm7-DM9-B7-Em7-GM7-DM9-A9sus-DM9 (IV-iv-I-VI(V/ii)-ii-IV-I-V-I)

Notice with the extensions, such can be applied in the improvisation. IOW, the extension can be separate from the chord (ie: Play the extension an octave higher).

GM7 = G-B-D-F#. the F# comes from Lydian (C) Dorian (A), Aeolian (E)
Gm7 = G-Bb-D-F - Dorian (F), Aeolian (Bb)
DM9 = D-F#-A-C#-E - Ionian (D) Ionian (A), Dorian (G) if you see this - F#m7
B7(alt) = B-D#-F#-A-(C) - Mixo, C Melodic Minor
Em7 = E-G-B-D - G Ionian/ E Aeolian
GM7, DM9 (See above)
A9sus = A Ionian

Now, I could have totally shot myself in the foot! If I did, do correct me!)

Thanks for continuing the conversation.


I'd like to point out that if I was working with a song that was easy to describe with theory... I probably wouldn't have needed to ask for help.

:-)


I really appreciate the folks who have taken to the time to actually look at the song and realize that it doesn't fit the easiest descriptions.


I'd also like to make a special mention of appreciation for those who attempt to help with this conversation while not talking down to others.


I have frequently found that the sort of theory questions I tend to ask illicit haughty, incoherent replies that reveal my actual question isn't being considered in detail or context. I guess I ask really hard questions. 

I understand that many times my lack of memorized fundamentals and the inability to speak the same musical language is the actual cause of the awkwardness... but it still feels like I'm being spoken down too... so I usually end up with my questions unanswered and the "teacher" acting in ways I find regrettable. 





I am trying to keep up with the explanations and I think I can sense who is doing their very best to be helpful.



You guys know who you are. Thank you so very much!!!


I am continuing to learn at my pace.


best regards,
mike