2013/01/15 18:59:10
Rain
A couple of months ago I demo'ed and purchased Slate'S RC-Tube. I had tried it on a relatively sparse/ambient mix and absolutely loved the effect.

Yesterday, while working on a much tighter/heavier song, I decided to give it a try to see if it could add something desirable to the mix. The results were actually pretty disappointing - even w/ just the drums solo'ed, I could hear that it was taking the mix in the exact opposite direction from what I was after and adding stuff that I'm usually cutting out before I even start mixing - a bump somewhere in bass/lower mid in particular. 

That's w/ the "drive" set to 0. I even brought it down all the way but it still sounded congested. I know some people say that the effect is subtle, but I guess it depends on the genre. In this context, the effect was rather dramatic.

The question is - at that point, is it worth inserting that at the cost of EQ'ing even more severely to obtain clarity or does it really add nothing desirable to certain types of music?

Or maybe it's that particular console model, and a Trident or SSL would actually bring that elusive quality. Or Waves NLS. 

I know you guys have the console emu built into X2, so I'm wondering how useful you find it, particularly if you're working on modern music w/ lots of punch and which requires tons of definition.

2013/01/15 23:33:21
Eddie TX
The RC-Tube has a character that is quite different from the other VCC console emus.  If you're after punch, the SSL or API would be more appropriate.  If a particular emu isn't working for you, I'd just leave it off if you have no alternatives.  Each flavor will be best suited for specific styles and not so good on others, so it's good to have a few choices if you work in various genres. 
 
For a cheaper alternative to VCC and NLS, you might give StripBus a try:
 
http://www.sknote.it/StripBus.htm
 
Cheers,
Eddie
2013/01/16 07:44:36
Danny Danzi
Rain


A couple of months ago I demo'ed and purchased Slate'S RC-Tube. I had tried it on a relatively sparse/ambient mix and absolutely loved the effect.

Yesterday, while working on a much tighter/heavier song, I decided to give it a try to see if it could add something desirable to the mix. The results were actually pretty disappointing - even w/ just the drums solo'ed, I could hear that it was taking the mix in the exact opposite direction from what I was after and adding stuff that I'm usually cutting out before I even start mixing - a bump somewhere in bass/lower mid in particular. 

That's w/ the "drive" set to 0. I even brought it down all the way but it still sounded congested. I know some people say that the effect is subtle, but I guess it depends on the genre. In this context, the effect was rather dramatic.

The question is - at that point, is it worth inserting that at the cost of EQ'ing even more severely to obtain clarity or does it really add nothing desirable to certain types of music?

Or maybe it's that particular console model, and a Trident or SSL would actually bring that elusive quality. Or Waves NLS. 

I know you guys have the console emu built into X2, so I'm wondering how useful you find it, particularly if you're working on modern music w/ lots of punch and which requires tons of definition.

Hi Rain,
 
Personally, I don't see the need for stuff like this. I've tried them all extensively and find that when I take them all off, I like my mix better. I strongly believe these things are more "eye candy" than "improved mix excellence". If you want a console sound, you either buy a console or one of those hardware strips. The cool thing about the Waves version is you get 32 channels which DO sound different from each other without using much of the "gain knob". Channel 6 or 7 I believe....sounds unlike the other 31 they offer and each channel has a slightly different characteristic.
 
You know me brother....I nail it from the source or I don't record the take at all. I've done my best to stay away from enhancement type plugs as they never seem to make what I've printed better than my source track. Nail it from the tracking stage and you'll find yourself using less and less processors other than some compression and fine tuning via eq.
 
-Danny
2013/01/16 17:53:39
dubdisciple
wise words from Danny. As "cool" as these things are , i find myself somewhat underwhelmed by them in actual practice. Just nailing a take seems to give me better results than throwing a bunch of enhancements. I'm still keeping an open mind, but until then I agree with Danny
2013/01/16 21:30:20
Rain
Thanks guys.

The reason I ask is that I see my favorite engineers still relying on consoles to mix and since I've never had the opportunity to work w/ one of these, I'm curious as to what elusive quality it imprints. 

I sometimes ear albums that were tracked an mixed in the box, and for certain genres, it sometimes feel like something is missing. But I'm starting to think that at least for certain styles, ITB might actually be better.


But maybe that little something just can't be re-created w/ plugs.
2013/01/17 00:45:23
Danny Danzi
Rain


Thanks guys.

The reason I ask is that I see my favorite engineers still relying on consoles to mix and since I've never had the opportunity to work w/ one of these, I'm curious as to what elusive quality it imprints. 

I sometimes ear albums that were tracked an mixed in the box, and for certain genres, it sometimes feel like something is missing. But I'm starting to think that at least for certain styles, ITB might actually be better.


But maybe that little something just can't be re-created w/ plugs.

Well digital is going to track what you put into it. Plugs or hardware, are going to color the sound. This coloration in my opinion, is subjective. Hardware gear, depending on what you decide to use, may lightly saturate a sound....it may color it and add warmth which takes away a little top end etc. 9 out of 10 times, you can get these results with a good ear and an eq. I've been fighting guys for years on this, but no one seems to believe me because they just don't want to bother to take the time to experiment for themselves.
 
The only thing you're not going to be able to do, is cop the sound of a saturated tape deck. No one has that down in my opinion, but the UAD stuff is as close as your going to get. I have 2 tape machines here. A 16 track 1 inch and a 24 track 2 inch. All they do when I push the signals a bit, is lightly compress the sounds and give me a little saturation. What this is in reality...less highs due to the tape taking them away, and tape compression. Use a fat eq and a good compressor while experimenting a bit, and I swear to you, as God is my witness, it will be so close only you will be able to tell.
 
As for consoles....a good console should NOT really alter the sound of your audio. I've done tests here to where the differences are so miniscule, it's not worth bothering. Listen to something 3 times. If you can't hear a difference and are forcing yourself to hear the difference, it ain't there enough to worry about it. Yeah, there are some goodies out there that can make a difference in sounds...there is no fallacy in that part of it. However, it's still possible to get close no matter what gets used.
 
When someone uses a console strip, most of the time they do so because of the eq that is supplied in that console. Certain eq's give you control that others do not. You'll notice less movement to notice sound changes in a good console strip with eq than an off brand that has the same features. A good example of this is the Mackie console vs the Behringer console that were supposedly created from the same mold which ended in some suit. The Behringer eq's were not sensitive and you had to really jump on them to notice a difference. This resulted in more of an eq'd sound and at times, a more harsh timbre.
 
The Mackie has noticeable results with slight eq knob movements. This is the type of eq you want...something that doesn't need to be jumped on hard to notice a difference. Sometimes the circuitry in a console will alter the sound, other times you won't be able to tell. You can nail the sound of anything you want with the right eq and the right ears, trust me when I tell you. Tape saturation done right and mic phasing is the only thing plugins aren't going to get right. Everything else...is all hype and completely achieveable...trust me brother.
 
If you hear a mix that sounds like something is missing and it happens to have been done ITB, either you don't like the mix, or that engineer may not have been up to your specs that time. We can't blame ITB for being better or worse for something. It's all in the ears of the artists and engineers as well as how the sources were tracked and how the rooms were utilized during tracking. Make no mistake...these channel emulators are not making a difference in anyone's world for the better. The only good thing they offer is the closest thing to a light tape saturation. Add a good compressor along with them, low pass 16k with something like a Sonitus eq that allows you Q control within a low pass/high pass to tweak just how much you want out, (it's one of the only EQ's that allows this by the way) and you got instant tape/analog sound and warmth. Add UAD plugs to your arsenal, and it gets even closer.
 
I use my consoles for 3 reasons:
 
1. All the stuff in the console can be sent to disc in one shot. Every instrument and processor goes into my console and has its own dedicated channel.
 
2. No input monitoring or latency control needed. I set my stuff to 2048 and leave it alone because the console is my live monitor.
 
3. Fader automation and onboard hardware. I like to lightly compress my signals going to disc and have dedicated compressors on each channel of my board to do this. No need for a patch bay or anything else. The automated faders in my console sync right up with Sonar so it's also a controller. Though I try my best NOT to use any console eq and get the source right from the start, it's nice to just press a high pass button on a guitar, bass or kick drum. I can always add it back later if need be.
 
But my main reason for the console is #1. It's nice to have everything you own ready to go in the console. Arm your track and it gets sent to disc without patching anything and the only time I need to adjust my latency is if I record a soft synth in real time or some drum module while using my V-Drums kit. Other than that, it never gets touched.
 
I've tried going right to disc and bypassing my consoles....not a difference I can notice. So in my particular case, the console isn't adding anything spectacular other than multiple channels and the ability to use a few compressors going to disc. They are just used to condition the signal to control peaks...not to add saturation or a "compressed" sound, if you will.
 
Another thing to keep in mind, if you are not mic'ing things up, you're losing loads of tracking elements. As much as we love speaker sims and they make things easier on us, the sound size is always smaller than if you mic an amp. Mic an acoustic guitar at the 12th fret or where the neck meets the body. Then record the acoustic (if it has a pup) using speaker sim or something. The sound size is drastically different. Same with mic'ing an amp. The combination of mics used on a guitar amp literally increase the size of the sound. Being able to nail that while also being in a room to where you can have the right amount of volume in that sound, is the key. Same with drums....these drum modules we all love are awesome! Mic a real kit and the sound size grows if you know what you're doing. The only drum module out there in my experience that gets "real drums in a room" is BFD2. Everything else is overly processed, small and doesn't even sound like a real drum if you kill all the processing. They sound like drum machines from the 80's.
 
So keep some of this stuff in mind, Rain. It's super important. Just about none of the pro's are using speaker sims on guitar. They'll layer them in with a mic'd amp, but that is not their "core" soundsource. Drums are all hybridded these days, so you have a mix of the real kit and some samples on top to enhance the real kit. These two instruments alone are your true core for rock music. A bass in the mix is well, just a bass. It's rare you listen to a rock mix and say "hey, that's a fantastic bass tone" unless the bass shows itself BY itself.
 
That's not to say don't worry about your bass. A good example of this...John Myung from Dream Theater. Worst bass tone known to man...but you wouldn't know it until the thing shows up by itself. It works perfectly in DT's mixes. Shame too...the dude is a fantastic bassist. His tone is just horrendous. Keys/synths etc are fake anyway so they don't play as much of a role and chances are you don't own a real piano to mic up or have access to a real string ensemble. :) Vocals....picking the right mic for the voice and then knowing how to process that particular voice is the key. Everything else brother...is all hype in my opinion.
 
-Danny
2013/01/17 04:27:18
Bristol_Jonesey
Great post Danny, and some excellent insight into the whole EMU/Sim hyperbole

I've given up with trying to get a decent tone from Guitar Rig/TH2/Pod etc and recently (Christmas) was bought a little Blackstar 5 Watt valve amp & cabs, and within a few minutes of plugging in & tweaking, I'm getting the sort of tone that I just can't even approximate with sims


2013/01/17 09:57:06
Danny Danzi
Thanks Jonesey! Well, you can still get good tones out of using speaker sim type stuff and plugs, but you have to really go into it listening closely and comparing what your mic'd sound is like. It also would be a good idea to check out the Redwirze cab impulses as to me, they are some of the best on the planet and give you a wide array of sound choices for the money.

Speaking of speaker sims, I do this "room within a room" thing with my speaker sims that sounds nearly the same as my Greenback cab with a 57 on it. Now, the key is to double mic to mix and match sounds as an entity. So if I use say...a 421 and a 57 on the cab, and then put a mic or two a little further away to capture some room, a speaker sim sound isn't going to compare. Sound "wise" it might...but sound SIZE wise, it will not.

The other thing to keep in mind is, for most rock music these days, rooms don't come into play as much as people think they do. Of course I'll be impaled for saying something like that, but if anyone that decides to bash me for that takes the time to listen to some current music, *most* things have a close up mic'd sound. The days of arena guitars and drums...or John Bonham type drum sounds, vocal ambiences, are a thing of the past. This has been replaced by close mic'ing techniques and parallel compression to add a bit more sizzle and zip. So in these times, where rooms are not as important, the mic's are going to make a difference on the size of the sound and if we need additional room ambience, there are some incredible impulses out there that would fool even the best trained ears.

The other thing to keep in mind is, most rock is all about layering. So we can have a big, mic'd sound and hybrid a plug or some sort of amp sim along with it. Layering is all about having different sounds performing to create the layered effect. Same with drums. We use a real kit and enhance with samples that are tuned over top for a little extra zip and can create wider drum sounds from doing this.

Yeah, those Blackstars are killer amps brother. Glad it's working out for you. I'm interested in hearing some clips when you get a minute. I got a pretty cool little piece of kit I've been working with that you may enjoy. Not sure if you know this or not, but I do quite a bit of beta work for a few companies. Acme Bar Gig is one of them...and we finally released our full version of "Head Case". I'll share a little sample with you so you can see what it sounds like.

When I do my beta testing, I like to create little projects so I can use stuff the way I would in the real world. I wrote this piece as a test project on my little Dell at home and then jumped on my V Drums kit and played to it. When the final release of Head Case came out, I dialed in these sounds (rhythm and lead) in about 2 minutes, so they were the first sounds I had created in the final version which was way different from the 200 beta's I tested. LOL!

The one thing you'll notice in this, which is also why I'm sharing it with you....the sound size is a bit smaller than if we would have used real drums and mic'd amps. Though I feel this is definitely cool for a little demo done on a Realtek (which will also make the sound suffer a bit compared to a real recording card at 24/48) everytime we go totally direct, the sound size will be smaller even though the sounds might be acceptable. To me, this is a prime example of that...but be that as it may, I still love the final outcome here considering it took no time at all other than the drums...which totally challenged me. Check it out if you get a minute...just a short instrumental piece using my own signature head called "Skull Job" that is also included in the suite.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Gimme%20A%20Skull%20Job.mp3

Here's what the head looks like:

-Danny
2013/01/17 10:35:39
dxp
Danny that is freakin' ridiculus man.... holy balz
2013/01/17 15:59:58
Rain
Jonesey - you and I seem to have very similar tastes when it comes to guitars and amps. I remember you getting that black LP around the same time as I got mine. Am I mistaken or it was also a gift from your wife?

Anyway, glad to hear you're enjoying the Blackstar. I definitely plan on getting a new one in the future, maybe the same 5 watts as your actually.

Danny, once again, great post, man. I'm guessing that a lot those engineers simply don't feel like spending time trying to learn and reproduce that sound ITB when they have access to all the gear to do it upfront, which makes sense, somehow.

Actually, going back to micing the amp is part of the plan this year, as soon as we move into a house, sometimes in May I think. More and more, I find myself moving towards getting the sound I need upfront. 

That being said, the last 18 months were crucial into training my ear to learn and identify what won't work in the context of a mix earlier in the process, so I don't feel like I've wasted time.

Funny you mentioned the bass, because, as I've mentioned before, it is still one of my pet peeves. Though that "Systematic Mixing Guide" I've mentioned in another thread really did help me in that regard. Stage compression in particular, which I hadn't tried before, seems to work better for me.

The other thing I'm looking forward too is a treated room and ARC. I know I won't be able to mix to my liking until that gets done. But in the meantime, I'm still learning a little something every day.


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