Dealing a lot with vocals and vibes that lash out everywhere at times ... I've pondered on applying more buss glue (comp and tape) to allow instruments and beatz to 'react' better.

Listening to recent pop mixes ... I've noticed some ... where haughty vox vibes are deliberately glued-back to allow other instruments more fan-fare.  E.g., The emo-girl's raspy lashings are subdued and her coherency seriously smeared ... for no-more in-your-face vocals.  Her vibe still rules, but she drowns (artistically) within the mix ... almost like an alien.

I realize there will always be a 'conflict' between instruments and vocs ... where everything competes for loudness.  So there's probably no right or wrong answer ... just art preference.

Any thoughts or preferences at all on buss glue ... while considering your vibes, timbres, beatz, or such.

Thanks in advance for all thoughts great or small.

http://www.cytomic.com/glue

http://www.soundonsound.c.../articles/the-glue.htm

In this book here..  One of my favs on the subject of music production...   They make it clear that they, "never used to put compression on vocals."

"Used to," is the operative phrase, because I specifically remember one of the interviewed producers saying, "nowadays, these singers are so loud, I can't help but limit them on the way in!"

So I would imagine that a lot of, "major label vocals," are getting, "printed," on their way into the studios DAW, with some sort of analog, or digital hardware limiter.

After that, "i doubt they get compressed again," although, "nowadays," if somebody said, "you are so wrong, they get compressed again," I'd just be like, "ok."  Wow...  sucky!!

Edit = forgot book link

http://www.amazon.com/Beh...oftcover/dp/0879306149

Lots of people used to use compression on vocals in the analog days.  The UA 1176 and LA2A combo started in those days.

It is just that now w/ virtual comps you can string too many on a voice.  I (and others I know) shave a few dBs off gently when recording.  That way you don't have to slam the track compressor(s) and the bus compressors but continue to shave the peaks so you don't loose the weaker words and phrases and the loud stuff doesn't pop and mask everything.  Serial compression a few dBs at a time most often sounds more natural than slamming infinity.  Too much compression makes even the sweetest voice sound harsh, hard and sibilent.
 
@

I highly recommend both of those books. There are two editions as well. 'Behind the Glass' and 'Behind the Glass II'.

They are almost a course in sound engineering, they are amazing. I have missed trains that have come in and gone from the platform, I have missed stops to get off. Not many books can do that.

The front sections are interesting but they are mainly a series of great interviews and the engineers give a lot away that is for sure.

Back OT I have heard that the Cytomic Glue is one very serious buss compressor. Very transparent. I think it is modelled on the SSL Buss compressor or the Smart C2 which is one very nice hardware compressor I have used especially in glue mode and it does a wonderful job. If you read the comments about it from various famous people around you will see it is very well liked. You can trial it too for two weeks. (in 2 one week blocks if you want and they don't have to be consecutive weeks either)

I read some where, that back "in those days" analogue tape also had a lot of natural compression; much like a tube guitar amp naturally compresses a signal.  The build up of tracks that were being naturally compressed gave an ovreall similar, glue type compression. 

Also read in the same articles that tape naturally cut some of the highs, especially as the tape was used over and over and aged. 

I have only hands on recorded to tape once in my life...eons ago, so maybe you old pro's can speak better to that than I can.  Just something I have read.

MakeShift


I read some where, that back "in those days" analogue tape also had a lot of natural compression; much like a tube guitar amp naturally compresses a signal.  The build up of tracks that were being naturally compressed gave an ovreall similar, glue type compression. 

Also read in the same articles that tape naturally cut some of the highs, especially as the tape was used over and over and aged. 

I have only hands on recorded to tape once in my life...eons ago, so maybe you old pro's can speak better to that than I can.  Just something I have read.

The "natural" tape compression came from the fact that the tape's magnetic particles could only hold so much of the magnetic charge/field and as a result, the louder passages could not impart a greater charge than the particles could hold..... hence the "natural" compression of tape.  Once that saturation point was reached, no more audio information could be stored in the magnetic field....and as it approached that point of saturation, the compression effect of the tape became more pronounced. 


 Of course, the scientific explanation is more detailed. 

Herb, not bad for a non-scientist!

Yep, that is kind of what I read, you explained it well in laymans terms.  As a result, they said when the old timers say they used a lot less compression, they did from a hardware sense, but they got a lot of "natural" compression out of the tape.  That was the jist of the article, along with less highs being present in the older material. 

Philip


Dealing a lot with vocals and vibes that lash out everywhere at times ... I've pondered on applying more buss glue (comp and tape) to allow instruments and beatz to 'react' better.

Listening to recent pop mixes ... I've noticed some ... where haughty vox vibes are deliberately glued-back to allow other instruments more fan-fare.  E.g., The emo-girl's raspy lashings are subdued and her coherency seriously smeared ... for no-more in-your-face vocals.  Her vibe still rules, but she drowns (artistically) within the mix ... almost like an alien.

I realize there will always be a 'conflict' between instruments and vocs ... where everything competes for loudness.  So there's probably no right or wrong answer ... just art preference.

Any thoughts or preferences at all on buss glue ... while considering your vibes, timbres, beatz, or such.

Thanks in advance for all thoughts great or small.

I don't know Philip, I've never heard anything by you that I felt needed any glue. You mention smearing in your post....this to me usually isn't something you get when using "glue". Smearing comes from limiting that literally smears/narrows the stereo field. It can be used as an effect, but it's definitely not "glue" you are hearing. Glue is just a subtle compressor on your master bus as you mix. The best results come from a hardware compressor with color or a flavor so to speak. The closest we can get to that without buying hardware would be to use something like the Fatso Jr starting with the EL Bus Glue preset. You put it on the master bus before you mix...and see how you fair. That plug has coloration and a little bit of tape type saturation. It's the only plug I've ever been successful with in that situation.
 
Now if you are dealing with stack of vocals, there's nothing wrong with sending them to a vocal bus with a compressor on the bus to glue the entire stack together a bit more. You should also compress the tracks individually....but once you get that sorted, you can send to a bus and use one of your UAD plugs or even the Sonar bus comp...which works incredibly well if you have X1 or X2.
 
Up front and in your face usually comes from lack of verb and a tight eq. When things go a bit more to the back, a light verb with some pre-delay, automation and a narrowing or widening of the stereo field with eq on the effects can work wonders and will yield nearly the same thing as compressing the heck out of a vocal. I sincerely don't think you need to go here bro....your mixes are always pristine and everything is audible in my opinion. :) Never hurts to experiment though. Just don't lose that classic "Philip" sound we're used to. :)
 
-Danny

I hate the term "glue" although I went through a period when I tried to glue everything. First, know that "glue" will not fix bad timing, poorly recorded, poorly EQ'd or bad sounding reverbs and delays on a track. Unfortunately, many people try "gluing" to dress a pig in jewels. In fact, I would not recommend any approach where you run the final tracks through a single stage of compression to make it sound better. Abandon this idea because it rarely works unless in some vibey, artsy, sort of effort in which the sound is meant to be trashed. It has its place in this case and Danny outlined how it should be used above.

My opinion is to stay away from compressors on the two buss. Just a limiter. Mastering generally adds a compressor across the mix and if there is any "glue" to be added, this would be the place for that. Get your mix sounding as close to your vision and smooth from a transient perspective, balanced from an EQ perspective and placed advantageously in the stereo field. Work on clarity, performance, the foundation of kick, bass, and snare along with the primary vocal so that these 4 have impact. Then work on tone matching the vocal to the primary rhythm instrument. If the mix is not sounding good at this point, a glue approach is just going to cloud the sound.

This does not preclude using parallel compression for vocals, drums or compressing individual tracks by the way. In a way, these should be used for fattening the sound or to focus in a specific frequency range. This is where the glue should happen anyway.