2013/01/03 13:27:21
M_Glenn_M
Do you mean what makes it sell?  
The most succinct I can think of is "a good story, told well"
It's the gestalt factor IMO. All elements working together.


2013/01/03 15:59:52
Danny Danzi
whack


Memorable and unique are very different IMO.
Memorable for sure is Justin Beiber's chorus, but it is far from unique.

I would echo what savageopera said, its the mystic produce of your consciousness that produces that beautiful flow of creativity, don't get in the way of the music is what I heard once and only now am I getting to understand what that means.

Danny is pretty experienced when it comes to this stuff he has seen a lot more that most people here and his post is very informative. I've no problem creating pop hooks, very easily in fact, however I have often been labelled as being "generic" i.e. without uniqueness and hence I've started to listen to more abstract non-produced artists to help me steer out of that box a little.

You do realise that very few artists have the whole package and that the reach the masses publicly they are generally thrown in with a team of lyricists, musicians, choreographers, producers etc to create the "package".

Cian

You Sir...better not change due to what you hear from others. If "generic" is something you enjoy, why change? One thing I learned Cian which I hope you take with you out of this post....listen to your heart first and foremost...and secondly, listen to someone that IS someone. Meaning, if a label or someone high up the ladder that can make a difference in your world tells you to change something or says "you're too generic" then maybe at least consider what they are saying. Until that time....many listeners and other folks that hear you, will say things to hurt you. You're VERY talented...with talent, comes jealousy brother...remember that. I'd not change a thing if I were you other than to keep adding to your awesome song list. Change comes over time with experience as well as life experience and self evolution. If you try to change for the sake of change or because a handful of people have made a mention of something that fly a desk as a day job that has nothing to do with music....you have your answer brother. Sometimes when we think too hard or try to focus too much on change....we affect what we do well and make things worse to where we lose ourselves. Just be careful. 
 
If I listened to all those that told me I was too 80's or my voice didn't fit my rock music, I would have never tried to do anything with my music. I would have been sitting here trying to conform to the masses as well as "the in thing" and would have missed the boat on where my heart was truly taking me. So just keep that in mind. Experiment and evolve whenever possible...but always stay true to your heart, listen to the comments you receive, but always consider the sources and YOU make the final call. At the end of the day, it is YOUR art and YOUR music. I'll leave you with one other thing...
 
Be thankful you're blessed to write memorable hooks. If it were easy for everyone, they would all be stars. Hooks can take you places. You may not become a big pop star....but what if you wound up being the king of childrens music...or Disney approached you....or Sesame St. called you or Wii wanted to use your music in a dance off game? Yeah....you better believe I'd jump on that train too brother. Hooks can take you in many places where other styles of music may not. Don't you dare change a thing other than the number of songs you have. :) Take this from someone that knows a little something about this that also thinks the world of you and your talents. :)
 
-Danny
2013/01/03 16:15:13
Danny Danzi
Kalle Rantaaho


(I use quotes by the word "unique" for the reasons found in Dannys post)

I believe trying conciously make  a song memorable or "unique"  seldom works. Building a composition is not normal math, because in music making 1+1 can make 5 and 25+78 can make 15.
Of course, sometimes a single hook, great guitar riff or such can make the whole thing fly, but the performer or lyrics can sabotage half of it.  I believe you can make "hits of the day" using the trendy sounds and riffs of the day and finding a trendy performer, but there's no recipe for making evergreen hits. 

IMO, the evergreen, "unique" songs mostly get greated when factors that you can not pre-calculate are united.

There are brilliant talents or teams, of course, whose creativity and personal approach produces always good stuff and often "unique", but it's not something you can write a recipe for. There are also those, who are the fastest in catching what's in the air, and succeed simply by being the first one. Those often become evergreens. For the less talented, a concious effort of being "unique" most easily leads to something that sound pretentious, calculated, clumsy...you name it.


As for what I do...
My songs are very much based on lyrics, so I only try to make a melody and arrangement that supports the text enough to make the package work.

+100000000! Well said on all counts Kalle! The recipe for it is....follow your heart...sometimes something extraordinary comes out on it's own that can't be "blue-printed" or scripted. It just happens. When people TRY on purpose to come up with this, 9 out of 10 times, they fail because it's just one of those things that happens or doesn't happen. Sometimes two writers with a mixture of styles throw something together that just clicks....other times the two styles clash. Look at The Beatles. To me, though individually they had a few good songs....none of them were really tremendous musicians. But when you put them all together with George Martin over-looking things...pure brilliance came out of them in my opinion and of course, hitting at the right time.
 
Another thing too is...people sometimes don't realize that they ARE already unigue and just need to do what they do. Sometimes we show our influences a little too much in our music...sometimes we come up with something ground-breaking that can't be explained. Anything that I've ever done that turned out to be what *I* like to call unique....was never something done by me alone. All the work I've done with Philip on this forum....has been unique to me because without him, I would have never been able to come up with the stuff I came up with. Like it or hate it...it's different and is well delivered. His art and style drives me to be different.
 
A few years ago, when I was in the Coffee House Band...I did a version of one of their tunes called "Countdown To Insanity". I added my spin on the tune and changed it drastically from the original, but truth be told, without Steve's original guitar lines directing me, Ed and Phil's words and some stuff that Grant had added in on the original, I would have NEVER ended up with the final outcome on my own. It's hands down to this day, the most different rock song I have ever done. I got such good response from my friends and collegues on that song, they were hoping it would be a change for me in style for my new album I'm working on. But...that won't happen because I could never write a song like that on my own. The inspiration is what created "unique". Without the other guys and what they have to offer, I sound like same old Danny which I'm still happy with. But it's amazing how having other talent on your team can create "unique" without anyone purposely trying for it. So again...to me, unique is something that happens....you can't try and create it. When you do, it just sounds forced and "for the sake of."
 
-Danny
2013/01/03 16:47:30
Rus W
Let me preface this post by saying:

I know folks are going to read this post and say it's all over the map, but sometimes you have to go branch out and go deeper, especially as the subject of music is no small subject to tackle - even if it's just one aspect (ie: theory/composition/arranging/production, etc.)

Moving on ...

After reading Kallie and Danny's responses, which I agree with, I also agree with it as looking at it from a individual/societal perspective.
Everybody's heard the contradicting statements when comparing to people (mainly women but men, too) - especially when wanting friends or potential mates

"S/he's so hot, but dumber than a box of rocks!"
"S/he ain't much to look at, but she can run circles around Einstein!"

Which person do I ask out?

As someone said earlier, if every artist had meaningful songs, then listening to music (the lyrics part) would be no fun at all, but tunes that are meant to be about having fun aren't meaningful. Yet, I find it absurdly ironic how folks find unnecessary underlining meanings to things that aren't pushed in there faces, but ignore them when they are put in their faces.

Like I've always said when it comes to movies: People pick out what they wanna pick out, no matter what you put in front of them. ie: There could be a slew of deep messages within an extremely violent movie, but it's repulsed just because it was violent. (The Saw Franchise for example). 

Do you see what I'm talking about?

Same goes regarding the classical (and all periods) vs. contemporary music. The former is sophisticated and says something every time you hear it, just like a thought-provoking movie (Inception). Then, you've got the modern bubble-gum pop akin to a comedy (Baby Mama).

I guess you see that everything isn't for everybody; however, you also see how creators (not just music) can use the term uniqueness - which, I too, don't like because again, nor everybody nor does everyone want to be all of those artists that Danny mentioned. They are in a class all by themselves and while it's nice to be influenced by them, don't lose sight of who you are either. "Don't give up what makes you, you" as said in a Anti-drug commercial just to impress people. 

As I argued (politely with Jeff though), I can understand how and why some things need to be "dumbed down." However, that in and of itself, has a very bad connotation. (I'm a gamer, so I hear this alot). Again, just remember that - everything is not for everybody - which is why production companies/artists/products get a ton of flack for the dumbing down -- er, streamlining -- because they try to be everything to and for everybody. (This includes the company this forum is tied to. No offense, Bakers)

I'm all for trying "to get a broader audience" and do know that sacrifices must be made - even though I might not like it; however, you really are shooting yourself in the foot if you try to appeal/appease everybody and everybody includes more than the audiences to listen to said genres.

Remember Tolkken, who wrote her first adult book? That was pretty much panned as the "Mrs. Hobbit" moniker won't wear-off any time soon; however, seemingly adults didn't like this book either. Having said this, you can't instantly jump out the box -- you can, but most people take gradual changes with a smile - moreso than abrupt one. There's nothing wrong with experimenting and in Tolkken's case, she may have a successful adult book or books one day.

So, perhaps the term one should use is different, but it would seem that people are afraid of that word and it's on so many different levels. What I want to know is why; yet, why is everyone trying to so hard to be something you're afraid of being (and not just for the hell of it?) The conscious effort Kallie mentioned above.

Is it indifference, perhaps? (This is what breeds dislike/hate) That's on a much deeper level than what is being discussed here, but do you see the similarities?

In terms the recipe - well, there's no one recipe because you'd get the "trite/ripoff" comments I mentioned in my previous post responding to the OP However, I wonder if that's the spiteful way of saying - influence (and I can make the distinction between both terms).

I still say that it's all about identification. One does not have to be off in the wilderness away from civilization to be identified; some visible clue while skimming the crowd can lead to identification as well. It'll be somewhat harder, but it can as has been done. (Where's Waldo,anybody?)

You have to be able to fit in before you can stand out or if you can't fit in, make it so you do stand out, then perhaps you might fit in.

Notice how artists are molded in they get into the music business! Then, after years of scrapping knees and breaking bones, they become their own person (assuming they broke away from mgmt.). That's why you hear things like "manufactured artist," etc; however, that is not the artist. That is the company they work for.

"My house My rules! You don't like it, move out!" or when they become of age, they boast how they can and will move out. It's unfortunate that people part ways on bad terms, but it happens.

But again, as it is still a matter of opinion if someone is manufactured or genuine, it's all about who you as the artist can identify with and how you identify yourself - most notably of and with yourself, first and foremost.

I've said many times that I arrange moreso than composing from scratch because that's who I am. I identify with that and so do the people around me. I've done original pieces before, but have ended up dissatisfied because that's not me! Be who you are!

Same with music although what comes through one's voice, instruments, writing utensils, speakers in an extension of the person who sings, plays, writes and listens to. She's going to be who she wants and you let her tell you - don't tell her, Suggest? Yes! Demand? Most certainly not! 

I happen to identify with her and she with me despite disagreements, but how boring would this "marriage" be if there were none. Even, literally the best marriages work when both are one, but have the individual identities as well.

That is how outsiders "identify" a happy marriage (among other clues) - even if everything plus the kitchen sink says otherwise! They most certainly can tell and unhappy one, especially if you don't hide it well!

Again, identification, identification, identification!!

I think this is the reason the term unique is used because it's very hard to identify oneself - especially, when it comes to the arts & entertainment.

Music having tons of genres and subgenres and the cross-pollination or movies/tv shows/video games/books, etc. having bits and pieces of other genres within them although they fall under one general category. Maybe it's that we need to get away from categorization. It's wonderful as it helps organization, but as noted with the fusing, categorization becomes more and more convoluted. In fact, it has been for quite some time.

So, you can see why the uber-generic term, "unique" is used although I agree that it has next to nil meaning, but so have alot of other terms in the English language (but that is most certainly another topic of discussion). I don't disagree with Danny who says that such a term means "a lesser endowed talent," in one sense, but how often have we heard when an artist is asked about their sound:


"It's a mix of this and that!" or when composition/arranging/production say that no album should be one where every song sounds the same nor should they sound like they're all of the place. Of course, to the physical ear, no album should ever be; however, an "unorganized album" is a way to identify someone, especially if they release tidy albums later.

"Hey, I remember the clusterbucks you made of the last three albums, but these last four sound so much better!"

As you see with the above sentence, you can be identified by things that are or aren't well-received, but here's a question: Would you rather go unnoticed because even BTS people get noticed, they just don't get all the attention the people infrony of the camera or onstage do! I'm a BTS person myself and I don't want recognition either, but I won't necessarily decline the gesture if I do get recognition because it just means I identified with somebody in some way; however, I might because the real reward was me connecting with somebody.
2013/01/03 17:31:20
Middleman
A banjo.
2013/01/03 18:12:03
Rus W
Middleman


A banjo.

But dueling banjos say it much, much better:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8




2013/01/03 18:50:38
timidi
Money
2013/01/03 19:31:20
michaelhanson
An artist that can actually write, play an instrument and sing with out the use of Autotune...that would be unique.
2013/01/03 23:08:28
Rus W
MakeShift


An artist that can actually write, play an instrument and sing with out the use of Autotune...that would be unique.
This is the other thing that bothers me. What is with the said artist must be a "triple-threat" to be considered somebody? I understand that from a musician/composition/arranging point of view, one has to dabb into quite a few things, but the person with ten talents can be just as unimpressive or even more so than the person with one talent. Surely, you agree with this?


But again, we go back to the idea that everyone has a different perception of what is good.


Take the lyrics some songs (using pop/dance) that get alot of flack because of "subpar" lyrics. Are they any better if the artist writes them? Yet, not all do nor get flack because they don't or the writing team gets flack for them being subpar. I'll reiterate again, lyrics needn't be deep and meaningful to have meaning regardless who writes them as some people will look for it anyway.


Don't get me wrong, I like triple-threats, too, but as they say in the film/tv world (this includes voice-acting) "An actor is only as good as the script!" IOW, even the A-List actors can't save shoddy movies. Of course, you do get the opposite happening on occasion, but then the casting director's at fault. If both happen in the same environment ... *SMDH*, no?


Again, there are artists who sing, write and play instruments really well, but don't have the "appeal to the masses" songs out there (at least in the concrete "mainstream" genres - ie: Taylor Swift - and all she writes about are ex-bfs who did her wrong. They could seem pretty trite to some and meaning to others, but they still mean something. Perhaps they're lyrical PSAs saying - be careful whom you have your eye on. *shrugs*


Yet, again, as an artist/singer-songwriter, that's how she's identified. I'm with you on the auto-tune,, but realize, too, that everyone doesn't use it; however, when you listen to someone like Britney Spears - it's a shame how it's a double-edge sword for her because she's sniped for using AT, but also not using it and/or lipping during concerts. Yet, many of us know that she's more of a performer (identification) than singer. I, too, can understand the crit for her major MMC mate, but don't criticize her if she decides not to use her pipes (Thankfully, I'm glad Lotus has a mix of both elements, especially the one she's known for).


So, again, while it's nice to have a few talents, sometimes that outshines the ones that have many. Yeah, I can play 100 instruments, but I knowingly suck at 98 of them; yet, I sound better and generate a much warmer reception, then my counterpoint who can play the other 98 (and he plays them well), but he sucks at the 2 I'm good/proficient at.


Who will garner and keep more interest? IOW, I don't need to play all 100 proficiently because even if I do, I may get no reception, much less a cold one. Furthermore, I still might get that if I played the two instruments I'm very proficient at. (Remember Pia Toscano getting booted from AI and she was really good! The song just wasn't catchy! Perhaps "catchy" isn't her though! I do like her "This Time" track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRn5d0a4Puw)


Clearly, the message here is: "I'll no longer be your doormat!"


Yes, her voice is saturated, but it's not enough to drown the lyrics or message.


But yeah, there are genuine triple-threats, but they started out as "lesser-talented-endowed," individuals as well. All of us have gifts that need to be nurtured, nourished and cultivated even if it's just one gift. Some people do less with more while others do more with less! Use what'cha got, you know?
2013/01/03 23:12:50
jamesyoyo
Unique is simply getting something out to the masses that they haven't been inundated with yet.

Autotune was unique, made Cher hip again and also made T-Pain a somewhat-household name.  Now you can't get away from it in just about every pop song.

Unique is just a sound, or a mood, or a weird phrasing of lyrics, or an attitude that comes across. That Gotye tune is a great example of all four. But with success the imitators come out and we wil soon tire of that song as a result.
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