As we keep experimenting, our project seems to be heading towards heavier stuff, I'm trying to adapt and learn on the mixing side as well as we go.

I hadn't really listened to metal all that much in recent years, and going back to the stuff I used to listen to, the production often seem pretty average - or straight poor in some cases. In order to avoid being influenced by anything similar to what we're doing, I intended to avoid listening to anything in that genre. But in terms of mixing, I guess I'll have to listen and learn from them.

Do you guys have any recent reference record in the "classically influenced metal w/ female vocalists"? I know the obvious one would probably be Nightwish. I've heard only one song from them - and it was a rough mix - so I don't know how they stand in terms of production by comparison w/ others out there. And since it's the obvious reference, I'm trying to avoid them.

Second - Bass. Besides the obvious distorted track that you can blend w/ the DI-clean one, in my dabbling w/ relatively flat sounding bass sounds, I'm quite perplexed to see that I usually find myself cutting quite a bit of low mids for the clean sound, from 200 on. I'm often tempted to scoop them out a bit even below that, from 120-ish on. And then usually adding a bit somewhere between, say, 600 and 900, wherever the guitars are scooped and leave a bit of room. 

Seems that it's where a lot of the energy for the instrument is (low mids) - but it just doesn't sound right to my ears in this context.

I was listening to a few older metal albums, wondering if I weren't overdoing it, and maybe my ears are fooling me, but the EQ'ing seems pretty drastic in many cases. Is that really where the genre's bass lives in the mix?

Thanks in advance for any tips, thoughts, opinions...

It is an interesting question Rain. I would like to say something about the drums though. I am sure Danny will have some useful things to say as well. What I find with modern metal recordings is how well the drums still cut through even though there might be a wall of guitars and so on.

Don't let them get lost! As a sound engineering teacher the biggest thing I find the most with the student mixes in this genre is the drums are usually lost at the end. That kick has to still cut through and be heard even in the dense passages and heavy guitars areas. It is about the tone of the drums and keeping them present not so much about level. They use samples a lot these days on the kick or in conjunction with the real kick.

Also the students tend to have too much bass with too much bottom end in it so yes there are bass areas you have to keep an eye on too. But take the drums away or let them get too low and you will end up with a wimpy sounding mix. There needs to be a good balance in the bottom end of both the guitars and the bass I think to get this sounding the best.

Thanks Jeff.

I always say I'm a frustrated drummer, so if anything, I think I'm probably more likely to end up mixing them too loud than the opposite. ;)

As far as I can tell, they really put a lot of emphasis on the beater, as the kick really seems to click through. Almost sounds as if the kick would mostly resides maybe around 80-100 and then re-surfaces much higher - that clicking sound. From my old days listening to Metallica, that's how I remember it. I may be wrong, I have to experiment w/ that stuff. But to my hears, almost everything in metal sounds "scooped" - it's all about impact.

As much as I'd like to approach it w/ my own tastes and background in terms of production, there are obviously guidelines as to what works for the specific genre.

Unfortunately, a lot of music in that genre doesn't sound as good as I think it should. I guess that I'm judging from memory, and how I used to hear it. But when I go back to those productions, I can definitely hear the flaws. And the newer stuff seemed to be plagued by the loudness war - and since it's already "scooped", abusive mastering really destroys all that's is left.

I realize I might sound overly confident in my ability to mix drums. Truth is that, at this stage at least, I'm still working w/ Superior Drummer, so, basically, something that's already polished up, nicely recorded and all. 

I probably won't be as confident when I have to mix everything from scratch in its raw form when/if that happens. ;)

But then again, it often seems like the majority of the online resources tend to focus on drums. When the focus shifts to other instruments like guitar or bass, it's more often than not in the context of a pop song or such, where they aren't so prominent. 

Rain,

I know prcatically NOTHING about metal bands, but have you listened to guys like Steve Vai, or Joe Satriani?  I do own a couple of their albums and they sound good to me.

Hi Rain-

I personally don't listen to very much metal with female vocals. However, some good references for just quality mixes IMHO are listed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Wallace_(producer)  . I don't like them all, but he doesn't have the over compressed over-produced sound of the late eighties.



You didn't mention what sources from your past you might like. Also, do you have any samples of your material?


I've spent years perfecting (without attaining) kick drum in a variety of contexts. One thing that is overlooked and works really, really well is to use different beaters for different material. I use wood beaters for metal, and thus I don't need to EQ as much as when I use felt. It cuts better without the cheesy 80 + click sound.


Just my two cents.


Bets o' luck.

In terms of style, it's hard to tell, mostly because of my own ignorance in regards to the specific varieties and sub-genres. 

Whenever I've heard those "symphonic metal" or "orchestral metal" bands, to me, it's basically all reminiscent of King Diamond. It's an extension of that.

Speaking very broadly - it's reminiscent of Cradle of Filth, because that's the closest "modern" thing I know, though less all over the place. That gothic metal element I guess. I'd say, Muse meets Cradle of Filth. 

Andy Wallace rings a bell (he worked w/ a Perfect Circle at some point IIRC?). I'll check his stuff.

Tony - I haven't heard either of them in ages. But I was a big fan of Satriani's Surfing w/ the Aliens back in the days - and I dug Vai's Passion and Warfare.

Man, I'm not getting any younger am I?... lol

Thanks, guys.

I don't personally do metal but I found these articles from SoS to be very interesting and deal with some aspects in depth. 
http://www.soundonsound.c...v09/articles/metal.htm
http://www.soundonsound.c...9/articles/metalII.htm
http://www.soundonsound.c...ticles/metalvideos.htm
http://www.soundonsound.c...rticles/metalaudio.htm

Thanks Cliff. Funny you picked those - I'd stumbled upon Russel's vids (seems like a cool guy) last week and read the articles earlier today after I posted this. 

The articles have some interesting cues (like the clicking kick I mentioned above) but I can't say that the resulting MP3 mix blew me away. But maybe it's just me - maybe I just don't like the average typical metal mix, because, I'm having the same issue w/ a lot of the "pro" level stuff as well.

Rain - you mentioned Andy Wallace.  I am totally into his work.  My absolute favorite is the way he handles bass guitar and kick on the first two Linkin Park albums - Hybrid Theory and Meteora.  He gets a very deep full bass sound in the 30-45hz range while the kick is around 50hz.  There is no mud in the low end and it is so tight.  This may not be "metal" but it is kind of a cross over.

Which kits in superior are you using?