munmun
Thank you everyone! Danny specially you. Being a stubborn SOB, I remain focused on teaching myself how to get this right. So I have taken the feedback and created another mix. I focused on getting a more defined bottom. It is definitely better than the previous version. But when I listen to my reference track, there is a sweetness in the highs that I just cannot get. My snare sounds harsh compared to my reference. The acoustic guitar as well. Anyway what do you guys think? If I am not closer, Danny we need to talk!
http://soundcloud.com/sun...n-the-name-of-paradise
(Long post ahead Mun....sorry. I tried, but there's no way around it to really explain this the right way.)
Not a problem man. Trust me, I know all about that stubborn thing. The problem with me was....I was so stubborn it took me 15 years to finally throw myself at the mercy of an engineer to teach me what to listen for as well as updating my entire monitor/listening experience. LOL!
The first thing you probably need to do is create a drop box account so you can post a good 320 kb mp3 in there and give us the link so we can hear it without the artifacts Soundcloud is adding. It's definitely affecting your cymbals and snare...and if it's not, we definitely need to talk. :)
Keep in mind, and I mean this sincerely...9 times out of 10 your monitor environment is the culprit. You can't fix the right stuff if you can't hear the right stuff. For example, I'm not hearing any kick drum barely at all on my end. I hear it but I don't feel it when all the music is playing. This tells me 3 things it can possibly be...or all 3 working as a team:
1. Your system is putting out lows, so your curbing them.
2. Your snare is paper thin and a bit harsh with no resonance. It just sounds like a pop...not really a full bodied snare drum. This could be due to #1. Your system is putting out lows, so you feel curbing the snare is the answer...which it is, but if those lows you are hearing in your system really don't exist, you'll never fix this problem and will remain searching for the right low end punch while carving things up to sound harsh where they shouldn't be.
3. Your kick is frequency masking with your bass.
My final advice: I still don't think you're far off, but the distance off that you are is going to involve a little work or you'll never fix this stuff.
First, you may want to do some room correction if at all possible. I use ARC here and absolutely love it in all my rooms. ARC also tunes my monitors. I get a lot of flack for bringing it up on this forum, but if you listen to the songs of those that have went out of their way to attempt to make me feel like I shouldn't brag about ARC, and then would like me to share some of my current works....you'll see that these certain individuals that stalk me about ARC, can't mix their way out of a wet paper bag to be talking such trash.
It's a fantastic tool. Those on this forum that use it seem to always get highly praised for their mixes and there are several. Again I say, it's a wonderful tool that is simple to use and it works for about 95% of the people that try it. Some have had bad luck with it and it failed for them....so there is a chance of failure. But it's never failed me in all the years and rooms I've used it in with every set of monitors other than NS-10's that didn't have a sub on them. As soon as I added a sub and did the correction again, my NS-10's are now as good as any other monitor I use.
Monitor tuning is another thing. You could go out and buy the best monitor rig in the world and be no better than you are now unless you correct the monitors to be flat. If a monitor rig puts out too much low end, this forces you to compensate and cut out the lows when in reality, they don't exist.
The same with monitors that may be mid range based or top endy and bright. This forces you to curb mids and high end when in fact, these mids and highs aren't really there. I mean they ARE, but once you correct your monitors, it balances them so what you hear is what you're supposed to hear. This stuff alone can be the death of you and all you do is waste time trying to compensate if you stay on the course you're on if this is indeed your problem.
There are free tools you can look into on the net that allow you to test your monitors as well as your room to find out where you may be lacking or where you may be putting out too much junk. The problem with it in my opinion is, you have to be selective in the mic you use to take the room snap-shot.
The wrong mic can give you the wrong outcome. If you create a post on monitor correction, the guys will come out and tell you what programs to use as well as how to do it. I just felt better with ARC as the mic that comes with it is made for the software as well as how it analyzes your room and monitors. But you could always hire someone to come out and do it with a scope. You'll need to provide an eq for them so they can remove/add the frequencies to flatten your monitors.
Don't listen to the masses....buy a sub. Anyone, no matter who they are, that comes on here and tells you "you don't need a sub for small rooms" is out of their tree. I have a sub in every room I mix in. The key is how much of the sub you allow when using it. Most near-fields can't get down low enough to those nice frequencies we need in our music.
They claim they can, but you may never hear it. With a sub, there is no mistake and no second guessing. You may need to experiment with how much or how little of the sub you allow, but you should be able to fix that in 3-5 mixes really. If you are mixing bass light, you lower your sub so it forces you to mix more bass in your mixes. If you are mixing bass heavy, you raise your sub so it forces you to mix with less bass.
The only problem with just guessing at it is, you may select the wrong sub frequency to boost on your sub if it has a frequency control. Knowing what sub area is right for your room is something you just have to know really. You can experiment and get a feel for what works best in your room though. For example, at my main studio, it's 85 Hz on my sub. At my new studio, 75 Hz was the best choice.
Next, and this is last because without the above, you'll never get it right. But the last on the list is knowing what and how to listen for something. Just about always, we need to be taught how to listen for this stuff. Some guys are naturals, others need to be taught things like when, where, how and why to choose a certain low end push for a kick drum or a bass guitar. What makes up the harshness in a guitar tone...when is it too warm, when is it too bright and what frequencies need to be adjusted for the best results? How much to high pass, how much to low pass...when to high pass and low pass as well as when to use shelving.
When is there enough vocal brightness in a take to where it's bright but not producing sibilence? When should a bass be boomy and when should it have a little more high end clack so we let the kick drum lead the charge? When should a piano be thinned out, or a orchestra patch and how do you go about it? How to make a vocal choir sit in a mix with other instrumentation....all this stuff is something you can sit around and experiment with, or you can have someone show you the good and the bad. Even when someone shows you, you still will need to hone your skills...but at least you have starting points and that comes from learning how to identify frequencies and almost speak "frequency".
What's a good sound that can be used in a recording...what is a bad sound that shouldn't even be kept to where you waste loads of time. Choosing the right sounds will always be the most important at the tracking stage as well as knowing what and how to listen for something. But without the right monitor environment with at the least, having your monitors correctly tuned, you're a fish out of water. Rooms can come into play with messing up the sound of a monitor system, but trust me when I tell you, the room is the least of your worries of the monitors themselves are giving you false representation.
Most home studio study rooms, bed rooms and office type rooms do not need room correction unless you are really experiencing problems. A corrected monitor system should be enough and HAS been enough for me when I've worked in those types of rooms. People give rooms a bit too much credit. When you are on top of your monitors with them being corrected monitors, as long as they are not up against a wall a basic office/bed room/small studio room is not going to be a problem.
But un-corrected monitors without a sub, will just about always be a thorn in your side. That's just my experience if you value anything I have to say. I don't listen to the people that get all scientific about how they correct their rooms and then show you examples of their audio work that sounds like an amateur. Yes, it can be important...but if you're just a home recordist looking for good, accurate sound, you don't need all that ugly crap degrading the look of your home.
So keep some of this in mind and see if you can look into any of it. The day you feel you've had enough to where you're tired of taking CD's out to your car, listening to them while writing stuff down that you will change once you get back in to your studio to where you can't hear what to change once you're back there because you don't hear what you heard in your car, is the day you'll submit and make a difference for the better.
Just don't waste 15 years like I did brother. The day I went for help was the day the clouds parted and I actually enjoyed this field without the frustration and actually make a great living at this now. Sometimes we just need help from the right people while doing the right procedures. To me, you can't put a price on that if you love this field and are as frustrated as I was. :)
I know I probably come off as a know-it-all or some sort of super engineer. I am
NOT. However, I get good results without blatant artifacts. People like my stuff or they don't...but it's rare they would say "too much low end rumble" or "too piercing" or "you have frequency masking going on." I'm a good balanced type of engineer that gets better than demo quality and I've had my rare moments where I've hung with big boy production as well. That's all we can strive for really unless we have million dollar facilities with millions in gear and the technical know-how for it. :) Good luck, hope some of this helps.
-Danny