@ Sharp:

I think it's the same way as if you didn't have hardware controller access (I do not), so this definitely applies to me.

Just automate within the software. Danny mentioned in his video where DIY'ers will take the loudest part and simply turn it down. However, he says not to do this because you lose audio information. This would be where you are applying and manipulating nodes. That's how I arrange now instead of cropping clips because what you may take away, you might want back. Leave the entire thing there and automate it accordingly. You will have to be very meticulous though if the automation is sudden and not gradual. (ie: > sfz on sheet music = gradual node decline, then a very sharp incline)


I also think the automation comment was also said in a arrangement/composition context because if the entire composition/arrangement is loud (meaning everybody, all the time - no dynamics), then what exactly is the loudest part of the song?

This was the biggest critique I got on another forum regarding a "signature" track. It needed to breathe. It wasn't loud, but nobody stopped playing and being roughly 7 mins, you get the picture.  Of course, it breathes now and has been for some time. (I'll do this for my other tracks, too when I get away from this one.)

From a production standpoint, dips in volume if/when compression is applied allows the compressor to breathe which is why he, Jeff, Bit and Bats have made such posts/threads regarding correct - er, better use of compression among other things (EQ, etc.)

Take the Classic Compressor plug: you don't want the indicator light on all the time - only on the loudest parts. Some have said to get it center around BPM if it's a rhythm track (Snare, Hat, Kick, etc.) It took me awhile to grasp what was happening and I still may be using it incorrectly, but experimenting is how you learn alongside tips from knowledgeable sources.

But back to the automation comment. It really helps the music breathe and the tools used to manipulate it. (ie: Automation takes the stress off them pushing so hard). As he said though, just because you've got dynamics in a track allowing your arrangement/composition/plugs to breathe, this doesn't license you to strangle them - especially the plugs.

As far as your other question, I'll let Danny have that one.

IIRC the SPS-66 has a built-in limiter (which I think you can switch off - but don't). If it flashes more than a few times or stays on for more than half a second, you're recording too hot and need to turn down the input gain. Better still, turn it down if the LED comes on at all. Remember, there is no benefit to recording digital audio as hot as possible.

So basically, track automation is not something you do DURING the recording process. 
Rather it's done like in Danny's video.

Thanks Bit! 

So if a limiter is a type of compressor and my SPS-66 Firewire Interface has a limiter, can I use my SPS-66 Firewire Interface as some sort of compression? 

No. You can automate during recording if you have a controller of some kind. (ie: mixer/keyboard/pedal)

Danny's video was showing while I'm reiterating how to if you don't have access (at least not the physical controllers or you don't feel like fighting with the mouse.)

This is essentially editing like you would via notation or PRV if you made note/velocity/timing or such like errors. Now, if your errors were quite atrocious, you may as well just re-record it, but automation can be re-applied as well. 

However, it's much easier when it's done afterwards, especially if you're of the meticulous type. (*Raises Hand*) And again, you don't have to deal Crop/Cut/Copy/Paste often if at all - especially if it's a complex composition/arrangement. (*Raises hand again*)

Don't get me wrong, retakes are wonderful; however, I'd rather take one or two takes automating afterwards than scold the instrumentalist fpr not having faded when s/he should have or if I think one would fit, but rather not bother him/her about it.

The advantage to this is the illusion created when done, ie: Songs that fade. Are the musicians actually fading or is the engineer adjust the fader accordingly? Live play is somewhat different, but if the house mixer is present and it's being recorded unless coming to a dead stop is the intention, automation - fading - will happen.

As I said before, this is one way to allow tracks to breathe (employ dynamics) and have happy musicians. ("I get a break! Thank you!" Then, they're playing two seconds later or forget when to come in and throw everyone else off. You don't want to deal with this!)

Music isn't stubborn. Musicians, OTOH ... (I mean this in a playfully sarcastic manner though many could attest to this)

Just like Bit said, that there's no reason to record hot, there's no reason to automate while recording, but again, not everyone is meticulous by nature. So, it's up to you, but I recommend doing so after recording. You can always fix mistakes later.

sharpdion23

"From there, track automation and a little compression done the right way should have you in great shape. :) "

How would you use track automation during recording? Also I have a SPS-66 Firewire Interface that has a "peak/limiter" LED. Does that only show if my signal is clipping?

No the automation comes after you record, not during the recording process. Hmm I don't know how trsutworthy the peak limiter thing may be in your interface. It's defintiely worth experimenting with though to see if it gives you a nice signal. Just listen for artifacts though.
 
Like...un-even parts of your playing that may get loud and low. If you hear that, the limiter may be working too hard or you may have your signal going in to your interface too loud. I'd be careful with any limiter function that just has an on/off instead of a means to control how it reacts to signals. So try a few tests with and without....listen close to your recroding to see if you can hear any differences first and foremost, and then look at the wave forms to see how different they look.
 
If with the limiter on, it sounds good and looks good, you have a nice little tool there that you can use as you record, but you'll still need to test it on a few different instruments to see how it reacts on them.
 
With the limiter on....if the signal looks good but the sound isn't good, it's best not to use the limiter because your sound you record needs to breathe and can't have artifacts from excessive limiting like I mentioned above. :)
 
-Danny

bitflipper


IIRC the SPS-66 has a built-in limiter (which I think you can switch off - but don't). If it flashes more than a few times or stays on for more than half a second, you're recording too hot and need to turn down the input gain. Better still, turn it down if the LED comes on at all. Remember, there is no benefit to recording digital audio as hot as possible.

Sharp, if the above is the case like bit is saying (I can't really give you much on that built in limiter because I've not used it or seen it myself...sorry) follow his instructions. It's sort of like I said when I mentioned "you may be recording too hot and pushing the limiter too much". That thing may do more help than harm if your signals are right. Then again, depending on how it reacts to what you record...it may do more harm than good. So just experiment.
 
-Danny

Thanks Danny. I have been recording for a while now with the limiter on and everything seemed fine to me. I haven't been hearing any un-even parts during or after recording. I try to record with -6db as peak to give enough headroom. With hardware limiters like mine that does not have any other settings other than on/off, does it only start limiting when my signal reaches 0db?

sharpdion23


Thanks Danny. I have been recording for a while now with the limiter on and everything seemed fine to me. I haven't been hearing any un-even parts during or after recording. I try to record with -6db as peak to give enough headroom. With hardware limiters like mine that does not have any other settings other than on/off, does it only start limiting when my signal reaches 0db?

If it seems to be working good and you're not hearing any artifacts, I say leave it as it is. But if it were me, I'd definitely be doing some testing just to make sure I'm actually benefitting from it. To be honest Sharp, I don't know how that limiter works as far as when it actually kicks in. For example, if you are recording at -6dB as your highest peak in what you are planning to record, if the limiter kicks at 0dB or just before to stop a clip, you're nowhere near the point of where it should kick. If it's kicking on anyway, that would concern me.
 
However, it is always good to try and calibrate your soundcard signals to Sonar. Meaning, if your card LED is reading something hotter than the actual LED level you are seeing in Sonar, that means the card is hotter than the signal being sent to Sonar and I can understand how the limiter would kick on. It would be kicking on due to the level the soundcard interface is reporting. Like I say, I'm totally unfamiliar with your interface so I can't give you any advice on what to do or how you would even calibrate that interface. Those are questions for either the support team of your card or a guy like bitflipper who may be able to point you in the right direction. I only know about the stuff I use and due to me using a mxing console, they way *I* calibrate my stuff would be way different than how you would do it.
 
-Danny

Thanks Danny, I'll run a couple of tests to see when the limiter kicks in.

use automation AFTER tracking.