"I don't do it on voice because it gives me that "Ozzy" sound. There are times when I will double a voice that is singing the same part for impact on something, but I don't use it as a part of my common practice like a lot of other engineers do. If I can't make a single lead vocal sound good on its own, I keep recording it until it does. Doubling it in my opinion, only doubles the lack of performance x2. "


Are you talking about the lead vocal? What if you are trying to make a choir effect? 
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Would this also work nicely on stringed instruments like violin, viola, cello and double bass?

OK.. I use a different method on vocals.  I pan hard r/l on acoustic for a wide sound..... BUT... on a vocal it's different.

Here's what I do. Not saying this is the right way.... it's how I do it. 

I record the vocal track 2 different times. But I do not pan them...I keep them both centered. 

I run pitch correction on the main and the second one.... In the mix, I choose the "better" vocal take as the main and set it where it needs to be in the mix as the main lead vocal. The second track gets set much, much lower. It's anywhere from -18db to -24db down in the mix below the main vocal.  It is very hard to hear as a different track and is only evident when the main vox is muted....then you can barely hear it. BUT... in the context of the mix, it tends to add a certain fatness with out the ozzy effect.  Set the levels by soloing the acoustic guitar and the 2 vocals... run the second one all the way down and slowly bring it up till you can hear it....then back it down slightly... you are close at this point... now, put them back int he total mix. Listen and see what it wounds like. 

I have experimented also with 3 sub vocal tracks....one centered and the other 2 panned R/L with the main vocal well above the sub tracks..... but I have not used this recently, opting instead for the forst method with 2 tracks. 

In my song Ode to Wolf I used this and in the choruses, I used the 2 sub vocals panned for the harmony.... but of course the harmony is not singing unison with the lead so that worked well in this case. I used envelopes to bring the harmonies up so they would be audible and evident in the chorus mix. 

For a true choir effect, you should plan to record multiple tracks and use a number of different singers. No problem using 2 tracks per singer but don't use one singer to record 20 tracks and expect it to sound like a real choir. The subtle differences between the singer's voices is what makes a choir sound like a choir. 

sharpdion23


 Are you talking about the lead vocal? What if you are trying to make a choir effect? 
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Would this also work nicely on stringed instruments like violin, viola, cello and double bass?

Yeah, lead vocals. If I'm going for a choir effect, I try NOT to double the lead voice so it stands out a little more and doesn't sound like this choir comes in and the lead vocal has to take a back seat as the focal point because of all the others. When you go for a choir effect, you're most of the time going to print several harmonies. So even though it's the same voice, it's a different take and a different part. I find that when I double a lead vocal in a choir situation, that the lead vocal can stand out a bit too much. If you drop it back in the mix to make the choir shine as "an entity" you no longer have a focal point lead vocal in the mix....the whole choir sings the part. That's just my way of handling it though. Ther of course are times when you WANT lead voices to take a step back and let an entire choir take over. It depends on the situation.
 
As for stringed instruments like you mentioned, sure you can do it. In a large orchestra ensemble with several "chairs" so to speak, there are usually several instruments per chair so you may be tripling a part depending on how many and much you want that section to stand out. If you thought of it that way and wanted to simulate that, you'd need to decide how many chairs per instrument. 1st, 2nd, 3rd chair trumpets....and how many in each....the same with violins....cello's etc. If you have sections of violins, you decide how many will be first chair that usually have the hardest parts to play. Say you have 3 first chair violins. That means you would track that part independently 3 times. Say you have 3 second chair violins playing a part under or a lower harmony. That's 3 more independent takes. 3 third chair violins playing under the 2nd chairs...there's 3 more independent tracks.
 
If you want to simulate an orchestra, you have to simulate what an orchestra consists of. This is why they sound so big and full of life. They have several instruments playing the same parts as well as several playing different parts. In my school band, we had 8 people playing flute broken up into sections like I mentioned. First chair, second chair and so on. We had 6 alto sax players broken up into chairs and one tenor sax. We had 3 first chair trumpets, 3 second chair trumpets, 3 third chair trumpets. We had 12 violin players all broken up into chairs. We had 7 on clarinet and 2 on bassoon. To simulate something like this and make it authentic, you're not going to get it with 1 or 2 instruments playing these parts. You'd have to record them several times even if it were one person playing the parts.
 
When you start to layer the parts, the stereo field will kick in due to how you have things panned as well as the human timing inconsistencies due to no one playing anything perfectly. You'll even get less of a stereo effect if one guy plays it all because part of the fun in stereo and layered tracks is how they are NOT perfect. Get two good cello players in the same room playing the same part. It will sound great, but there will always be human timing inconsistencies between them. This is what makes them sound good believe it or not. If they played the parts perfectly, it would sound mono.
 
Here's a test for you to further demonstrate what I'm talking about with the mono thing if I've lost you. Import a stereo piece of music into Sonar. Then, clone that track so you have two of the same thing. Pan the first one all the way to the left, and pan the second one all the way to the right. Now press the stereo interleave button on each track so that both are mono. Press play. They sound mono and right down the middle, right? Ok...
 
Hi-lite the second track, go to process, select slide and set it for "ticks" and enter 20 into the box and press enter. Now press play. You'll notice the track sounds like it's in stereo now even though you are in mono, right? That's called "The HAAS effect" but my reason for showing you that is so you can see what happens when you have some time drifting when you are presented with 2 of the same parts.
 
When you first loaded this up, both parts playing the exact same thing were completely mono and down the middle. Once you off-set the timing on the second one, it became more stereo sounding because of the timing difference. You slid the other clip back 20 ticks. When we record musicians and double their parts, the timing not being perfect is what contributes to the stereo field. Add in different musicians with different timing and you form an orchestra. The tighter people play timing wise, the less you actually get the stereo effect. It's the loose-ness, execution start time/end times and little inconsistencies that make this so grand. Tighten it all up and all that goes away. Understand now? :)

-Danny

Thanks for the explanation.  On a side question, when/how do you use the sonitus chorus fx? or similar chorus effects?

any time you decide to use 'an effect'......
you are becoming 'the producer'.

the choices you make, are what define you as a producer and engineer.


maybe the correct question is only 'how'?

the 'when' part, might never happen!

and of course, i always suggest just diving in and experimenting....


with all these questions you are asking, i think it's obvious you are just getting into the game...
if so, then do what most of us have spent many years already, doing, and that's experiment.



just because i tell you to do something one way, doesn't mean that it is THE way.....
the fun part, is figuring out how to do stuff 'differently'.

so that you can differentiate your sound, from everyone else's.



the "HOW" to use these effects, is as elementary as simply cracking the manual open.

sharpdion23


Thanks for the explanation.  On a side question, when/how do you use the sonitus chorus fx? or similar chorus effects?

Chorus can be used on anything really. It just sort of wavers the sound using a modulated delay with a controllable wave filter within it making things sound a bit thicker or sort of doubled in a sense. Really nice on acoustic guitars (you can sort of get a 12-string type effect in a sense but it still falls short), clean guitars, slightly on a stacked vocal bed, (or even lightly on a lead vocal for some texture and depth) a lead guitar solo (think Alex Lifeson from Rush) a string section, a piano etc. It can make things a little thicker but can also ruin a sound in 5 seconds....so be careful with it and use it sparringly.
 
-Danny

Thanks Danny. What are vocal beds?

Vocal beds meaning back up vocals where you may have a few layered sections of high, mid and low harmonies...or even one group of back-ups signging in unison. The chorus effect just adds a little depth and thickness. Try it and you'll see what I mean. :)

-Danny 

(edit)

In my opinion the word 'bed' to describe vocals is a bad choice of words. Usually the word 'bed' means several instruments eg laying down 'bed' tracks in the rhythm section usually means bass, drums and perhaps one or two rhythm instruments.

I think the word 'bed' or vocal bed the way Danny has used it could make it confusing. Vocals are either lead Vox or backing Vox or BV's. That is it! A vocal is either lead or backup harmonies etc. BV's is the much more common terms used here anyway.