Ha, funny, I did think that the VC64 was doing a pretty crap job! Loses a lot of brightness and the attack and release just don't want to sit well no matter where you put them (primarily the release). I went with it cause the 76 pro channel was too grungy for what I was trying to achieve and I just wanted to try it (the VC64) out again cause I never really used it much.

I get what you're saying though about when to use this technique. Though I'd probably just end up volume automating it a little first if I couldn't get things to work properly...

I'll have to try out this 'LA-2A' and 'Fairchild' emulations on my vocals too. I'm curious to see how the perform. Should be a lot smoother I think.

timidi


Hey Kalle. do you have a link where you read about this?
Thanks

What I read was a shortish forum comment by an engineer who says it's his routine procedure for bass ... in finnish language, sorry.

I doubt  this is any good for vocals, because in human voice we spot the unnatural elements so easily.
(Oh..I see a comment that it DOES work well on vocals...just have to try myself).

Jeff Evans


It is a lesser known technique for sure. Mike Stavrou who writes for Audio Technology here in Australia (and also has written that very good book 'Mixing With Your Mind') swears by it.

If you think about it then the reason it works so well is the compressor is acting in quite a different way on the end of the sound first and the start of the sound last. And it handles transients differently because the way the transient is presented to the compressor.

Stav also talks about doing your mixes in reverse as well. He says they come out sounding a little better than normal and you end up with a more percussive mix compared to mixing in the normal manner. I have not spent time on the reverse mixing concept so much but applying compression to reversed audio definitely sounds better and it also means you can use a lesser compressor to get a much better result than normal. 

It seems to me that all your are really doing is changing the effective slope/curve/ratio characteristics AND by doing it backwards you are sort of shooting in the dark.

There's something specific happening... but doing it backwards makes it more difficult to discern what that is.

Working backwards like this means the "attack slope" is now swapped with the "release slope" and very few compressors have as fast a release as an attack. So, in effect, running the process backwards forces you to use a relatively slow *attack* (which in this case would be the release backwards) and that will have a great impact on what you can and can not do. It may be a case where the constraint opens up some new avenues of focused exploration, but it may also be a case where that sort of exploration was available in the forward direction as well.

For example; the enforcement of slower attack duration will provide "a more percussive mix". That seems instantly obvious; We can figure out how to do that without having to run the signal backwards. :-)



In other words, the ability to adjust for a incredibly wide variety of attack and release characteristics is available on modern full featured compressors and it's likely that you can set one up to get the same sound as running something backwards. The latest greatest wanna be, retro-dude, cripple ware stuff may not be able to do it but the full featured compressors that come free with most DAWs seem to have everything required to set up some cool sounding soft and slow attacks.









Furthermore, in my very personal opinion, the very idea of running music backwards through a processor seems like an act of anti-music. If the musician(s) can't hear them selves playing it and they can't respond to the results musically, in real time, then it's just more goober-it-in-POST-crap and it is undermining the potential for music to transfer any emotion.

If the performing musician(s) cannot have the chance to USE THEIR EARS while playing to make their very best music then it's Game Over. 

 best regards,
mike

The concept of applying compression to reversed audio of course has nothing to do with musicians playing live. It is more about getting a different sound out of a compressor. And what better way to do that by applying the compression to audio that is reversed rather than normal.

This all relates to backwards mixing which is also another topic. From Mike's book Mixing With Your Mind here is some information.

The following also applies to using compression on a backwards mix. The compressor in this situation smooths out a mix like peanut butter. The Attack becomes the Release and the Release becomes the Attack. But it does not get punchy because it cant grab the head. The head is the tail now so you don't get the sensation of it grabbing the attack. It is smooth but not punchy. It has the effect of ducking the Attack with anticipation. It is a beautiful effect but more like peanut butter than a boxing glove.

Backwards mixing arises out of the need to make better analog tape copies of a multi track tape from one tape to another. It is better to do this backwards. You get a better copy or print. But we don't have to worry about this these days. 

Here is an approach to better EQ of instruments or sounds.

When you listen to audio backwards and you are hearing none of the transients but what you hear more clearly is the tone of the instruments. Normally you hear a thwack which distracts you from the tone for a split second. With backwards audio you hear the tone sneaking in from miles away and then at the end when you least expect it there is a click which was the attack. Your focus changes, instead of EQing for the attack you are naturally more focussed on the resonance, the ring and the tone of the instrument, which when you think about it comprises most of the envelope anyway.

Backwards audio removes the language out of the music. Instead of being distracted by your native language or that of a saxophone, the language gets stripped out leaving you only with shape and harmonics galore. Even rhythms seem to vanish. This is a whole new psychoacoustical playground to dive into. Removing the language forces and unbiased view of the sounds.

You don't have to mix backwards of course but reversing audio even temporarily will open up some interesting possibilities in terms of not just how a compressor may work or behave but also hearing the sounds in a way that may facilitate better EQ approaches etc..

Well said Jeff!

Any idea that can be used to encourage active listening, and listening from differing, perhaps even pluralistic, perspectives is something I can get enthusiastic about.

all the best,
mike

It's been a while since I tried the backwards-compression trick, but IIRC at the time I had come to the same conclusion as Mike and others who suggest it's really not worth the trouble. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's an anti-music abomination :) at least not any more than using a compressor in the first place.

This strikes me as like turning the house around because the nails are pointing in the wrong direction.

If compressors are stealing your song's percussive elements, lengthen the attack time. It's a heck of a lot easier :)

I find it to be more of an effect than an effective compression technique, by which I mean that when I try to compress a reversed track it takes me much longer to get the settings right. But as an effect I love it. In the dark ages we would, from time to time, flip the tape reels, play a track backwards and compress it and then record it onto a second deck, then flip that one and fly it back in. Can you see the many problems? Two extra generations of tape noise, and sync'ing the whole thing was an exercise! But, if you are looking for a different sound you should check it out!

Great way of thinking about it, Jeff.

I remember doing art in school and the teacher got us to copy drawings of faces etc but to do it upside down - for the same reasons you mention above. I remember the result was always so much better doing it upside down. But the technique was limited and probably most useful for people with a lack of artistic drawing skills. Maybe a similar principle applied here? Great for the novice to check his/her mixes but once some serious skill begins to develop it becomes less and less important and limiting. But if it's just a quick check every now and then, can't hurt anyone!

I gave this a try on an acoustic track (lead line). i could hear no difference.
Just sayin.

the theory has to do with being able to compress more with out lossing, altering or creating transients.
It's got to do with the compressor being able to work slower, due to the the nature of reversed signals.