spacealf


And what happened to the Augmented Chord (the Diminished was mentioned)?? (transitional chords)

Transitional chords - you can play I, IV, V, or go the long way and stick some other chords in there and eventually get to the IV, or the V.
 
Then you start playing 4 note chords, then 5 note chords, and then you twist your fingers around and play 6 notes with one 5 finger hand.
Someone wanted to play jazz on a trumpet and wanted me to stick these chords in a free form flow (no beat actually), but I never heard back from him.
So although boring here those 6 note chords in a video for the heck of it I guess: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qFicKq2fQ 

Don't ask what those chords are though, I did it in midi first of all or else I could not tell again what was played anyway. I think I did figure it out one day but anymore I can't remember. Figure it out some day again someday perhaps.
Got to give credit to some jazz players they always come up with sticking other chords in to get somewhere else with the normal chords.

Someone stated that to make music,  "sit down and make mistakes". (those mistakes are really never done on purpose but) That way you come up with something different and even sometimes it will sound better (or you may incorporate it into the song) because you got out of the rut of having been bombarded with the usual I, IV, V, which one day got old and sickening although it is played more than anything else. I am sure jazz players put real effort into finding different chords for a progression.

Anything else I do not know, but usually sometimes try and figure it out.

Eventually, the other four (technically, three - V/vii essentially are the same chord and the viio in triad from is rarely used). 


The reason the augmented wasn't mentioned (by me anyway) is the same reason the viio triad is rarely used. The augmented chord has been used and has its use, but more than likely, the chord in question is bigger than a triad. CMaj7#5 or CmMaj9, In the first chord, the augmentation is obvious; however, you have to pull apart the second to find its augmentation. It's the 7th - but take away the root  - it's the fifth and (EbMaj7#5) it looks and sounds just like the first chord (CMaj7#5) despite having a different root.


You're right about also being a transitional chord (the fifth chromatically ascending to become the third of the next chord, most often times a fourth above it - C-Caug-F or C9sus-C7#5#9-C7#5b9-FMaj9 - 5-#5-3)


And I totally agree with making mistakes, but I'd go further to say to make them on purpose to see if you want them. Improvisation must have changed if this doesn't occur.


The altered chords Herb and I mentioned have not-so-good sounding notes; however, it's not impossible to make them sound good which is why improvisers sound like they do.


This brings up the whole Consonance/Dissonance (ie: Tension/Release) issue and I think we can all agree that there needs to be a balance between the two.


"Take the good with the bad and ugly," as they say. This is the crux of Janet's dilemma!


Oh, I-IV-V! Oh, I-IV-V 
My pieces sound happy and bright ...


Oh I-IV-V! Oh, I-IV-V!
My progressions are lifeless and dry ...


The extensions, subs, alterations, turn down/up the brightness/darkness not to mention the other three chords in-between - ii/iii/vi


Same with a minor key - despite the darker tonality.


i-iv-v
You're bringing me down
I'm sick of being your clown
I'm gonna start jerking you around ...

These are clearly anecdotal references, but to me they clearly describe her dilemma.

And it's not just Jazz guys! True other genres don't use extensions, subs and/or alterations are often, but outside of rock/metal, they are used. The whole "Jazz Chord" is an egregious misnomer. "Color Chord" sounds more universal. I put effort into the progressions I use - not being fancy just to be, but to bring life into what would have a been a lifeless progression and all the techniques and applied examples do this.

Here's an idea for you, Janet:

Run the harmonized scales (Major and Natural Minor for now) forwards and backwards, then randomly play them to see which ones pair up best. I realize I've stated which ones do, but if you go by that, you will begin to think and not just play. Or as I've frequently said on the IBM forum, study songs.

An example would be "Lean On Me" which is I-ii-iii-IV-V. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPoTGyWT0Cg

What I am suggesting is to work through some concepts in some sort of order. The order I was taught I always found to be very good and reliable. It is one thing to put a whole lot of information out there but it is another to work through it in some sort of logical order. 

There is nothing wrong with the information that Rus and Sam has provided us, it is great info but when you do you start working with it. After doing some other stuff first that is all I am saying.

spacealf has brought up a good question in what about the augmented chord. Answer is very simple. This chord does not really make itself known until you do the work I have suggested with scale chords in the minor keys. It is not present in the Major keys at all.  It does not manifest itself until you get to the Melodic (Jazz) minor and the Harmonic minor scales. It is the bIII chord which happens to be Major 7 #5 chord. In the key of C the bIII chord is EbMaj7#5. Or without the seventh added it is simple Eb Aug.  Still nothing to stop you using it in a Major context as well. Try using it instead of any of the Major chords that exist within the major key. Does it sound OK with the melody at that point? 

The 3 minor scales (Harmonic, Melodic, Natural) throw up some great sounding chords. For major scales we have heard: Major 7, Minor 7, Dominant 7 and Half Diminished. But with these minor keys we now have these extra chord colours. Minor Major 7, Major 7 #5, Minor 6, Dominant 7 b9, Whole diminished.  Very nice sounding chords. Voicing the chords is also another story. 

Each major key has a relative minor a minor third down so that opens up another 7 scale chords. (with those extra chord colours) A melody may step into a minor tonality at any time. As soon as it does there are another 7 scale chords at your disposal. So for any give key now there are really 14 scale chords for you to put under melody notes. Not bad eh! Better then the 3 or 4 chords that Janet started out using.  And that is without even doing a key change yet.  Every time you do a key change you have got another 14 scales chords available.

Makeshift also brings up another great point about bass lines. A really great way to come up with interesting chord progressions is to create the bass line or bass movement first. Treat the bass line as a melody. Then figure out what key you are in and when you are stepping out of that key as well. Bass line can be chromatic too.

Janet, what happens when you sing or play the bass lines to your songs that tend to sound the same. Answer. Bass lines are all the same and a bit boring and uninteresting. If you are someone who likes to create chords first before melody and there is nothing wrong with that either then start with an interesting bass line melody. That will lead you to interesting chord changes which in turn will create interesting melodies on top.

jamesg1213 also brings up a very important point about muscle memory that leads you to standard chord progressions. So true! Mike, (to your post below) yes lovely way to experiment and yes very good way to come up with interesting sounds. I just wish you would sing more! You are such a nice singer Mike!

I don't know enough theory to do much other than observe this conversation, but one technique I have enjoyed over the years is to play what most would call a simple chord progression while voicing a melody over the chords in such a way as to make fancier harmonies that, in my limited scoped of under standing, more or less seem to  end up acting as examples of the fancy chords some are speaking of.

I just do it by ear and smile when it sounds good.

Thoughts? Comments?

Is that a valid way to understand some of it?


best regards,
mike

My suggestion for Janet would be to learn songs. the Beatles comes to mind.
Of course a thorough understanding of theory is useful also.
There is nothing wrong with 1 4 5. See, I didn't know all your songs were 1 4 5... Really?

Anyway, what I got from your query was the desire to get outside the box. Not sure if your box is 1 4 5 or just standard tonality in general. By that I mean, The song is in a KEY.. If it's in a key and stays in that key, it is still in a box IMO. I have the same dilemma sometimes, in that 'tonal' can be very bland. It's the little variations outside of the tonal center that really can spice things up.  Or, you could just play what you always play but change the bass notes. C/A F/G G/E er sumpin...:) 


There are a lot of standard out of the box progressions also. C E7 F G,- C Em F Ab, - C A7 Fm G7. Some have become so standard that they're really not out of the box anymore.

Anyway (again) theory, songs, and time are the way I think.

Sorry to ramble nonsensically.

Listen to Jazz.

@ Beags: I did say start with scales! lol

Seriously, I went ahead a few chapters and I apologize, but no shame in looking ahead either, so you'll know what you're getting into when you get there. Honestly, I just said what came to mind.

That whole "Bravado" thing got to me. I know you meant well though. 

No hard feelings?

@ TMidi

That's the odd thing with music. Just like the mobster says in that commercial:

"Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me right back in!" 

And also the "makes sense" part comes in when you figure out what is happening. Those three progressions didn't appear odd at all since I knew what was happening and mentally listening.

That's what your mind and ear do.

Thanks again, everyone!

A few notes:  Mike (Makeshift)...I play the bass now too, so yeah, that makes sense.  :)  

Tim, I really do need to learn more songs and then learn the chords and write them down.  If only I didn't always have 15 things I either want or need to do at the same time.  :( But this is going on the list for sure. ;)  And yes, I guess I meant in the key...I do actually throw minors in there too.  :)  And I even throw in slash chords, so maybe I'm not as bland as I thought.  Well, yeah I am.  lol

Jeff...logical order, yeah, that makes sense.  I'll figure something out when I make myself sit down and do it!  

Herb:  Jazz??!!  Well, maybe.  Most of it drives me crazy. Sorry.  

Rus and Sam and Jeff...I'll get back to you in a few weeks or so.  :)  

(just got a cello and I'm trying to practice 30 minutes a day, so any extra time I might have is going there.)  

How about both of you theory guys make me sick, intimidate me and....did I mention you make me sick/green with envy? LOL! :) I'm hoping to change all that though as my good friend Beeps wrote me up some killer material that should help my sorry @ss with theory. I do pretty good for an ear player, but it's about time I try and connect the dots. :) You guys rule! We're all in this for the same reasons...to help, teach, learn and explain it how we've lived it. :)

Janet: Learning progressions for me was a matter of jamming with other players. Youy get forced to play what they play and once you play something, you usually never forget it. You can then hear that progression played by someone else and you just know what it is. For example, there are a few different variations of 12 bar blues. However, once you hear/learn one of them, you just know the others and can usually figure them out by stumbling around for a few secs.

But the best thing for me to learn progressions was to just play to songs I liked on one string or one note on a piano. Just so I got the feel of what root notes were used as well as the progression changes etc. Then once I got the root notes down, I'd go back and change them into chords. You'll be amazed once you do this...at how many chord structures turn out to be very similar just using different notes. Try it sometime, it's pretty cool. Good luck. :)

-Danny

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that would be a great idea, Danny.  (playing along to songs I like.)  (I don't get much time to just jam with others for the heck of it.)  

And I didn't mean to sound so whiny in my last post, like all you guys have given me so much work to do and when will I find the time?? Agh!  Silly me...I ASKED for ideas!  :)  Anyway, I need to just make time for this, like I make time for practicing, etc.  You guys have given me great ideas to start.  Thank you!  

"Herb:  Jazz??!!  Well, maybe.  Most of it drives me crazy. Sorry."

Hi Janet, I had been holding off making any suggestions in the midst of such a discussion but this comment struck a nerve.

1) I think listening to a wider variety of music helps you play a wider variety of music.

2) Jazz IS the history of modern music. Jazz has something for listeners of all experience. The scope of Jazz includes the most straight forward chord progressions through to the most challenging ones to listen too. Jazz starts with the church hymns, invents rock and roll, informs RnB, and finally set a standard that "prog" is still trying to aspire to. BTW, Did you know that Bill Munroe considered "bluegrass" to be his form of Jazz? Jazz IS the history of 20th century music.

3) Many people listen to Jazz that is too complicated for their taste and then wholly dismiss it. It is really important that one starts their Jazz listening adventures at a place in Jazz history where they are naturally comfortable and find familiar harmonies.


and that brings me to...

The American Song Book

which the study of will fulfill many of the recommendations offered here by so many others.

You can start with the older straight forward progressions from the 1930's which are effused with soul and spirit and then gradually follow along as the harmonies and melodies become more and more complex.



I was fortunate enough to have mentors that were able to introduce me to listening to Jazz on a step by step basis... guys would literally hand me a record and state "if you liked that you are now ready for this". Those guys made it possible for me to hear the progression and eventually tolerate and even enjoy the most challenging stuff.


I should warn you though... if you become a Jazz listening enthusiast you will come to expect listening to music to be a fulfilling experience that offers harmonic richness, complex texture, and invigorating melodies... it may make you think a lot of music is un fulfilling. That can be a curse of sorts... but when you get to that point you can always go off and listen to "world music". For example; I've been listening to Ravi Shankar's first album from 1956 repeatedly recently because it seems like medicine for the mind. It didn't always sound so good to me but now I crave it.


I have found that listening to music, and learning to listen and enjoy to the best parts of any particular style of music has directly informed my playing.

I play by ear and often stumble on melodies and harmonies and recognize their "value" because I have heard and enjoyed similar harmonies played well in the past. Listening makes that happen for me.

Developing an ear for listening is a big step towards learning how to listen to your self.

I used to get to mix for a trumpet player named Marsallis... he'd bring a real good band with him. I got lucky and learned to really enjoy the stuff that I assume drives you crazy.

I encourage you to take some of Herb's good advice and listen to some type of Jazz, what ever style you find most comfortable, and see where that takes you.

Check out some Billy Holiday recordings... if the melodies are too crazy, work back wards. If not dig in and, as Danny has suggested, play along and jam with the band.


all the best,
mike