• Techniques
  • A Learning Experience? Peak/RMS Levels
2012/10/02 07:28:52
digi2ns
This is meant to be a fun and informative thread for us beginners to learn how others achieve there recordings with a song to compare to (if possible).

How do these figures look and what would you do on the average recording to better a similar (or this) recording. 

 
Edmund Fitzgerald Tribute 10/2/12 on Soundcloud
http://soundcloud.com/dig...itzgerald-tribute-10-2

Recorded at 44.1/24, exported at 44.1/16
BUSS METER AVERAGE PEAK READINGS
 
                               RMS        Peak 
BASS                      -18          -13
KICK                       -18          -4
SNARE                    -18          -4
ACOUSTIC              -18          -8
ELEC RHYTHM         -28          -15
ELECT LEAD            -24          -12
LEAD VOX               -18          -7
BU VOX                   -15          -9
MASTER BUSS         -10          -2
What would you change on this and how does it affect the mix?

On your favorite recordings, what do they run? (Gives something to compare with possible outcomes)

Any and all info/participation is greatly appreciated
 
2012/10/02 07:34:35
digi2ns

https://www.dropbox.com/s...ln3uu37jn/EFT%20CV.jpg


Console View screen shot
Sorry Photobucket was messing up and dont know how to get Dropbox to post pic
2012/10/02 07:54:15
Guitarhacker
Mike... I have to say that I really do not pay too much attention to the numbers of the levels in any of the tunes I mix. 

I set the levels more by listening...

I use the meters to see that nothing (well not much anyway) is going into the red in the tracks. I want nothing hitting the red in the busses at all.... 

I use numbers in the tracks. Mostly when I set an envelope. I use the number so that when I envelope a part out, and a few bars later I bring that instrument back, I want that level to be the same as it was before the envelope dip..... but that is really all I use the numbers for. 

I'd have to look at a given project to get the actual numbers BUT..... as a rule of thumb and a starting point....I try to keep a lead vocal up near zero as long as it's not running in the red.  If I am doubling with a second track, that one is generally running about -16 to -18 and it's barely audible in the mix with the main vox muted.  Harmonies tend to run -16 to -8 or so depending on how prominent I want them to be.  On the "wolf song" I think they were somewhere around -10 for the most part although they did vary in certain parts and become more prominent and then fade back again in other parts. 

I don't know if that helps or answers your questions...... but no...I don't focus on the numbers. They are useful, but I don't rely on them to make decisions.
2012/10/02 07:55:41
Guitarhacker
I use the console view to compare relative audio levels from one track to the next.... working mainly in the track view.
2012/10/02 08:01:08
digi2ns
Thanks Herb
Yeh Im trying to see if I should be following some sort of partern or starting point with the levels.

Also is there a big thing to watch for as far as Peak vs RMS (I have no clue on these other than keep them out of the red/just shy of it)  

Ive been starting with the Drum kit then bringing everything else up to its levels. (I prefer to here more kick and snare in the mix than it be sitting way back in it.  I believe alot depends on ones preference and the genre.

Thanks for the input
2012/10/02 12:43:07
bitflipper
Another angle for looking at this, Mike, is the crest factor. That's simply the ratio of peak to RMS, but it's the closest thing we have to an objective measure of what's referred to as "punch" or "sparkle".

In your example values, your kick has a crest factor of 4.5 (18 / 4). That kick is probably going to sound punchier than one with a crest factor of, say, 2 (which is what you might get from compressing it heavily). 

I include the caveat "probably" for two reasons. First, we don't know if the -4db maximum peak is typical or an anomaly, and second, we don't know the frequency content of the peaks. You could, for example, have a "ticky" beater sound typical of metal music that's not very punchy but has a high crest factor.

Vocals, OTOH, sound best with a low crest factor in most genres. A high crest factor might indicate a vocal with too-prominent "T"s and "K"s. Your lead vox crest factor of 2.5 is fine, but might suggest that more aggressive compression at least warrants a test.

You can lower the crest factor by either shaving peaks or by raising the average level while keeping peaks the same (depending on whether you want to adjust overall perceived volume or not). You can raise the crest factor by decreasing compression ratios. Tape sims lower crest factor. A transient shaper can be used to go either way (I like the one in Superior Drummer a lot for kick, toms and snare).

In my own projects, I look at the crest factor of the finished (mastered) product as an indicator of possible over- or under-limiting. I don't usually measure it, but can tell by looking at the waveform whether it needs a little more or a little less. My favorite productions tend to have a high crest factor, although what's acceptable depends on genre and style - a quiet ballad will have a lower crest factor than an aggressive jazz-funk piece.

Here's a slappy bass guitar with light compression and a modestly high crest factor. Peak is -8db, average RMS is -21db, for a crest factor of 2.6. Note how you can "see" the crest factor by comparing the thick area where most of the samples live to the spikes that represent each note attack. Depending on the source, the peaks may take on the appearance of grass or hair, and I've actually heard the term "hair" used in this context.


Here's the same clip with heavier compression to trim the peaks. The highest peak is now -11db, but average RMS has only dropped to -22db. The perceived volume didn't change much, but the crest factor as dropped to 2 and the track sounds less punchy.





2012/10/02 13:02:37
mixsit
Ok here's one for ya to toss in the pot.
I don't pay much att to the numbers (don't even use track meters most of the time)
Hopefully most of the tracks land close enough down around the -15--24rms comfort range (and well below 'peak concerns) at tracking. -some folks liking to go through and trim align' everything for a tighter sweet spot for the faders. Totally in Track View here BTW
You'll notice the gain fader has a +18 range -faders, clip gain envelopes +6.
Initially on a mix rough in I'll use track faders, and the gain faders to get a bead on tracks that might need some global lift (or cut.
 
If the track is far enough out of whack to warrant it, i.e. well beyond the +6 available on clip envelopes- I'll add it in 'Gain Process.
 
Gain faders then go back (or stay) at zero. I basically leave them there –as handy floaters' for future quick tests' or temporary adjustments- And as they can't be locked- simply to remove a variable that could be bumped' or questioned later in a mix.
Then as I go add gain and fader envelopes.
Gains' double as edit, trim and mix moves-
At this point the decision to use the fader vs. the 'gain line automation for a move sometimes becomes simply convenience- as in if nodes and a leveling section is already on one or the other, fine-
But also there is always the question/consideration and choice as well- Does the track have dynamics on the insert?
Then if so would this move be more suited to feeding into the comp' or post compressor?' Which- sets up (very often... ) some nice really handy mix/flavor/result options along the way.
2012/10/02 16:22:18
droddey
You sure your two columns weren't mis-labeled? How can you have RMS levels higher than peaks?

Anyhoo, generally you should go by ear, as others have said. This is where a calibrated listening environment can help, so that you know that a certain master bus dBFS level (with a test signal) corresponds to a certain SPL in the room. That dBFS to SPL mapping is set up so that anything with too high an RMS will sound too loud and anything with too low an RMS will sound too low. It'll naturally push you towards an appropriate level of compression. So you just arrange for the right dBFS levels on the master bus, and then use your ears to get the appropriate level of compression.
2012/10/02 16:29:52
The Maillard Reaction

One other thing to consider, and I guess that is part of the premise of the original post is that RMS doesn't correlate to "loudness".

Loudness will account for the frequency range and how our ears responds to the perception of loudness.

Maybe you can find some VU meter readings to include in the list as well. If you do you may recognize some patterns that match what you already know through experience and or intuition about balancing the levels of a mix.


best regards,
mike
 
2012/10/02 16:39:29
batsbrew
yea, those numbers don't look right

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