I also go by the listener's perspective on drums. I changed everything on my synth (ya, well snyth drums) to match listening to it. A person is not on the stage, although that is another option which I suppose can be done. So with that in mind:

The bass drum is never in the center (unless mono PA) so it is left 3-5%, snare right 3-5%, toms getting bigger from l and right more (for in front of bass drum type toms) to big floor tom - about 25% left, while ride cymbal usually on left also is 30-35%, and hi-hat is on the right after the snare at about 25-30%, and crash cymbal (ride two) is about the same as the other ride but on the opposite side. (that is on the synth).
So when drums are used it is panned 100% L and 100% R to take up the entire field.

Vocals in center, bass guitar never. Usually I been using R side (as listening) between 10-40 %, because the bass guitar player is not on top of the drum player.
Guitar more to a side and quite a bit all the way to 90% and keyboard player the opposite side about the same depending. Anything else thrown in and I imagine a bigger stage and try and put the instrument playing where the player will be.
 
Oh, and then you got sounds panning left to right or right to left or wherever and like flying depending on what sounds or music that is playing.

Even forwards or backwards into the mix if appropriate.
3D with stereo image of speakers. (somewhat)

Well, that is about it, and vocal harmony would be off of the lead vocal on both sides but not to far off.
Adjust and listen and adjust and listen making sure you have a stereo image coming out of your speakers (that represent a stage perhaps) and have at it.
Any speakers usually will give a image like that if used properly and you are in the center listening (because it is all a virtual reality) anyway.

ChuckC


Rus I i'd still rather control that manally.  Maybe I am nuts?  Maybe I am wrong but if the fader needs to get boosted after a pan I am perfectly capable of doing that manually to my own taste ya know?

Yeah, I know. I was explaning (as best I could) what happens and I did say you could control it. (Manually adjusting volume, EQ, etc.).

There are so many factors why similar elements will turn out differently from mix to mix. I think it's useful to have a normal starting point and then make adjustments on a song by song basis. Just a quick tip. Sometimes if I have trouble hearing an instrument (element) in a crowded mix, I use the Sontius Surround Plugin. I zoom out and move the position of the element (speaker Icon) to different locations until it emerges in the mix.

Rus W


^ There's a reason that happens!

Not sure how to explain it, but I think of it like this:

You know when audio files are expanded, the sound stretches; yet, when it's compressed, the sound is tightly packed closer together? (When looking the waveform. Not to beconfused with Zoom/In/Out)

This is what's happening and you hear it back down sped up or slowed down (tempo - not pitch shift)

If the guitar in dead center, the meter is green often, but the further you pan over to either extreme, it gradually goes to red. This is because you've truncated the space in the spectrum; therefore, the sound gets louder (and the meter for that channel heads towards clipping) to compensate for it as only one channel (L or R is used instead of two (L and R). Of course, one channel could have more weight on it than the other depending on how far it is away from the center.

Remember being taught absolute value in math? That is how panning works! How far am I away from zero?

The piano is at -3dB, dead center (0); however, given what happens when it's panned to either side, that's what causes the clipping! The severely limited space of the sound being heard across the stereo field.

Pick any sweeping sound and pay attention to the meter! Regardless of what the volume is, once a wall (channel) is hit, the meter should bleed.

Again, as you pan, available space within that channel dwindles, so the sound increases in volume to compensate (that's why hard panning evokes clipping). This doesn't mean you can't do it as few tweaks to either volume or EQ (most often) will take care of it.

I may be off, so someone correct me if I 
  
  
  
  
  
  
 
 
 
 
 
  
 

Do the more recent additions of Sonar (versions beyond 6) still use panning laws?

*OFFTOPIC* One thing that seems to have helped my mixes is I stopped beatting the compressors to death. on an individual bass or guitar track I used to have it running with 8-15db of gain reduction with 7:1 ratios and use make up gain to get it back which beat up the dynamics within the part (little nuances like palm mutes etc). I am now keeping it down around 4-5 db GR with ratios around 4:1 for guitar tracks and to me it sounds much more natural and breathes better. what do you think?

  
  
  
  
 
Hi Chuck
 
Me again ; )
 
Honestly speaking and not trying to be mean.
 
If your digging the sound of your guitars with the 4-5 db GR with ratios around 4:1 I bet youd like them even more
at a 2:1 ratio. Not forgetting the attack and release set correctly to taste.
 
Distorted guitars are already really compressed dude.
 
IMHO the best way to give a guitar its own idenitie in a recording is to capture the air around source.
 
Records recorded by Steve Albbini are good examples.
 
 
Just some food for thought.  :  )
 
 
MP3ISTHEDEVIL

mp3,
   Bro, I don't take that as being mean at all...  I asked for your opinion and you gave me yours without sayin something like "it would sound better if you hadn't put it in the trash compactor" so we're good.  LMAO!

   That doesn't suprise me at all and I am sure you may well be right.  I had no formal training so starting from presets on compressors like the sonitus "electric guitar preset" does start you off really high.  It took me a little while to really start to hear the differences and understand how to improve the sound.  I am still learning of course and am by no means an expert.  I appreciate the tip.  So thank you!

MP3ISTHEDEVIL

*OFFTOPIC* One thing that seems to have helped my mixes is I stopped beatting the compressors to death. on an individual bass or guitar track I used to have it running with 8-15db of gain reduction with 7:1 ratios and use make up gain to get it back which beat up the dynamics within the part (little nuances like palm mutes etc). I am now keeping it down around 4-5 db GR with ratios around 4:1 for guitar tracks and to me it sounds much more natural and breathes better. what do you think?

  
  
  
  
 
Hi Chuck
 
Me again ; )
 
Honestly speaking and not trying to be mean.
 
If your digging the sound of your guitars with the 4-5 db GR with ratios around 4:1 I bet youd like them even more
at a 2:1 ratio. Not forgetting the attack and release set correctly to taste.
 
Distorted guitars are already really compressed dude.
 
IMHO the best way to give a guitar its own idenitie in a recording is to capture the air around source.
 
Records recorded by Steve Albbini are good examples.
 
 
Just some food for thought.  :  )
 
 
MP3ISTHEDEVIL

Agree 100% with this...well said. The first thing you'll notice here Chuck, is the guitar will breathe a bit more and actually be a bit looser. That's what you want to get that "now sound" as opposed to a guy like me with a bit more of an 80's tighter compressed tone. Going from 4:1 to 2:1 with a slight drop in threshold will give you that. Yeah...as MP3 says, attack and release will come into play here. For starters, try to go for about -2dB of gain reduction with the above settings and see how it sounds. It's a little more on edge so to speak and more modern because you're allowing it to breathe and not walk such a straight line.
 
+1 on the "distorted guitars are already really compressed" comment. Just look at a wave form with distortion on it. It already has taken the form of "the square box". However, one should never just NOT compress it because of that. It's nice to have a lil gov'ner on the guitar sound just to keep the little peaks and valleys in check. Especially when chugging on G#, A, Bb or B. You'll notice the wave form will change and you meter will rise.
 
Also, you'll often times need less compression on a tube sound than you will a transistor sound due to the saturation tubes give you. But make no mistake....it's always good to comp the sound for what it is even if it's justr subtle. There have been times though....when I've not used any compression at all. When you get that golden print, you try your best not to touch it. :)
 
-Danny

I also forgot to mention here....you got some good advice with panning. However, each song will be different. When you listen to the song, it should paint its own picture. Starting points are cool at times, but it's nice to start the mix at the center position and just build on it. What may have sounded right from an old project may not sound right here. So you can't really use the same formula every time. I mean you CAN, but why would you? That's sort of like playing the same guitar solo in every song or playing the same basic, boring drum line in everything.

One thing I've learned in this field is.....if you get too comfortable, you never grow or change. Always try to mix it up and change things up. For example...most of us have about 400 plugins on our systems. We may use 50 of them total, right? Why not try a project with the plugs you have never used before and log it so you can see what results you get? Certain plugs do things to the sound field...so this forces you to pan differently. Run a few different eq's or compressors you haven't tried...see how it makes your song sound different. Then save that mix, and open up the original project and use your go to plugs and see how different it sounds. If you stay with something too long, it's like lifting weights....one day, the exercises lose their lustre` and you have to change your routine. This forces the muscles to grow. If we did cable fly's for a year, one day you will notice you're not getting that chest pump anymore. You move to dumbell fly's laying on the bench and low and behold....you feel the peck pump. This is forcing the muscle to grow due to changing the routine those muscles are used to.

The same with you as an engineer. You don't grow if you don't experiment and change here and there. Using templates over and over stop you from growing because there are certain things that will never be put in the road for you to learn from. It's all subjective at the end of the day, but it helps when you try new things each time just to see how you make out. Lab work is good brother....I try to do it once per week at all times just to dive in to areas I may have been too conservative on. :)

-Danny

+ 1 on the above post! (Doesn't surprise me who it came from!)

mp3, Bro, I don't take that as being mean at all... I asked for your opinion and you gave me yours without sayin something like "it would sound better if you hadn't put it in the trash compactor" so we're good. LMAO! That doesn't suprise me at all and I am sure you may well be right. I had no formal training so starting from presets on compressors like the sonitus "electric guitar preset" does start you off really high. It took me a little while to really start to hear the differences and understand how to improve the sound. I am still learning of course and am by no means an expert. I appreciate the tip. So thank you!

 
 
 
I was not trying to be mean that time either
But I admit to coming off as a bit of a dick.
 
All that aside
 
I have no formal training either. And the little bit I do know took a long, long time.
And in my opinion a compressor is probably the most difficult to use when first starting out.
Unfortunately its the most dangerous as well.
 
So keep your chin up. The minute we stop learning stuff (never) is the same time we should quit.
Know what I mean.  :  )