I guess I haven't experimented much when it comes to signal routing. I always seem to fall back on "Effects->EQ->compressor, without any real idea of the circumstances in which I wouldn't do things in that order. 

But with the ProChannel, I'm starting to think more about it. When using the Softube saturation knob, or the stock tube saturation (not sure I fully appreciate the difference yet!), would you generally put that before or after EQ? And do you always (or mostly) end with the compressor? 

Also, under what circumstances would you not set a ProChannel to "post"? 

sharke


I guess I haven't experimented much when it comes to signal routing. I always seem to fall back on "Effects->EQ->compressor, without any real idea of the circumstances in which I wouldn't do things in that order. 

But with the ProChannel, I'm starting to think more about it. When using the Softube saturation knob, or the stock tube saturation (not sure I fully appreciate the difference yet!), would you generally put that before or after EQ? And do you always (or mostly) end with the compressor? 

Also, under what circumstances would you not set a ProChannel to "post"? 

I'll give you my take for what it's worth Sharke. The order of effects you choose will just alter the sound. Sometimes subtle, sometimes drastic.
 
A compressor first in line will compress the signal going into it. All effects after will effect the compressed sound. If we put the compressor later in the chain or last, the compressor will compress the entire sound plus all the effects before it. There are times when you may want that sort of sound, other times, you may just want to compress the signal itself.
 
The order you choose is up to you. Just test it sometime and see which you like better on certain instruments. Sometimes you want the saturators to effect the sound, sometimes you want a little after a sound has been compressed....you have to try a few different chains to see what works for you.
 
As for "post" the only time I find myself using that is when I use virtual tracks. For example, if I am using a drum program with virtual tracks (like where you assign the outs to your drum module to several tracks in Sonar and treat them like normal tracks so you can process effects instead of working inside the drum module) I find that any instrument that does not have a physical wave file on a track will respond better when the effects I use are set to "post".
 
This was really noticable with the Sonitus eq built into Sonar 8.5. If I ran drums on multiple tracks using a synth to where there was no wave data, "pre" did not give me enough eq. It was very subtle to none at all. Switching to post allowed me to hear drastic eq changes. This is not as apparent in X1, but I still notice a bit more eq when using post when there is no wave data on a track and I'm using virtual tracks. But if anything has a wave file on it, I leave it at default which is pre. Hope this helps....good luck.
 
-Danny

Yeah I guess it just comes down to experimentation and listening at the end of the day. I need to train my ears - it gets to the point where I'm moving things around and I cannot even hear the difference clearly. I think fatigue has a lot to do with it, although I do try and rest my ears a lot. 

Yeah man, it will definitely require experimeting and really honing in on what you think you are hearing. For example, let's say we ran the Saturation knob first in the chain and we used "keep high" setting on a drum kit. And, lets say we put a compressor like the pc 76 after it. Turn the compressor off for now. Now set the Saturation Knob to about the 8th dash which is about 1:00 and listen to what it does to the drum kit. Now turn on the compressor and mess with it. 
 
You will notice that the more you mess with your compressor, the more it controls the way the Saturation Knob effects your sound. Add an eq after the compressor (or before it) and the eq will literally control how the Saturation Knob behaves tonality wise. If the eq was BEFORE the Saturation Knob, you wouldn't hear it actually messing with the sound of the Saturation effect, understand?

The compressor after the Saturation Knob (when the right attack and threshold is used) will smooth the effect out (as well as your drums). If the Compressor was before the Saturation Knob, it wouldn't smooth out the Saturation....it would just effect the drums. So with the compressor after, it compresses both the Saturation Knob and your drum kit. Compressor first, just your drum kit and the Saturation Knob will do its thing without any smoothing. Understand now?

The same thing applies with other effect. It's like....if you want to compress your effects you are using, you put the compressor at the end of the chain. If you want to effect your compressor, the effects go AFTER it. They will all still process your track you are listening to of course, but the order you select will dictate how things sound.

Another quick example. I like to use a compressor on my bass followed by a tone coloration EQ  (like the UAD Helios) and then a Sonitus to high pass the bass. I use them in that order. Now, there are times where the bassist may need a little help. So moving the compressor to last in line will give me a totally different outcome and will compress the tonality eq as well as the high pass eq. This is a more aggressive approach where normally, I wouldn't want my eq's compressed...just the bass itself, so the compressor would be first in line. Get it now? :)

The same thing with enhancement effects. Do you want to delay your chorus, or chorus your delay? Do you want to flange your panning, or pan your flange? This is why effects order can make a cool difference. But it's something you'll need to experiment with for sure. Like I said before...sometimes it's a subtle difference, other times, like where I have to change my compressor to last in line on my bass track, it's more drastic in the change because then I'm compressing my bass as well as the eq's that are before the compressor which opens up new sound options. :)

-Danny

I feel small for asking but I can't figure out the EQ on Pro channel, when I think I tweaking the low end frequency other parts of the EQ moves. What does it mean with the LF button etc are blue vs white? I would assume blue for activated and white for?

BMOG


I feel small for asking but I can't figure out the EQ on Pro channel, when I think I tweaking the low end frequency other parts of the EQ moves. What does it mean with the LF button etc are blue vs white? I would assume blue for activated and white for?

Blue vs white? You lost me there BMOG. Can you try to explain your problem again please?
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi


Yeah man, it will definitely require experimeting and really honing in on what you think you are hearing. For example, let's say we ran the Saturation knob first in the chain and we used "keep high" setting on a drum kit. And, lets say we put a compressor like the pc 76 after it. Turn the compressor off for now. Now set the Saturation Knob to about the 8th dash which is about 1:00 and listen to what it does to the drum kit. Now turn on the compressor and mess with it. 
 
You will notice that the more you mess with your compressor, the more it controls the way the Saturation Knob effects your sound. Add an eq after the compressor (or before it) and the eq will literally control how the Saturation Knob behaves tonality wise. If the eq was BEFORE the Saturation Knob, you wouldn't hear it actually messing with the sound of the Saturation effect, understand?

The compressor after the Saturation Knob (when the right attack and threshold is used) will smooth the effect out (as well as your drums). If the Compressor was before the Saturation Knob, it wouldn't smooth out the Saturation....it would just effect the drums. So with the compressor after, it compresses both the Saturation Knob and your drum kit. Compressor first, just your drum kit and the Saturation Knob will do its thing without any smoothing. Understand now?

The same thing applies with other effect. It's like....if you want to compress your effects you are using, you put the compressor at the end of the chain. If you want to effect your compressor, the effects go AFTER it. They will all still process your track you are listening to of course, but the order you select will dictate how things sound.

Another quick example. I like to use a compressor on my bass followed by a tone coloration EQ  (like the UAD Helios) and then a Sonitus to high pass the bass. I use them in that order. Now, there are times where the bassist may need a little help. So moving the compressor to last in line will give me a totally different outcome and will compress the tonality eq as well as the high pass eq. This is a more aggressive approach where normally, I wouldn't want my eq's compressed...just the bass itself, so the compressor would be first in line. Get it now? :)

The same thing with enhancement effects. Do you want to delay your chorus, or chorus your delay? Do you want to flange your panning, or pan your flange? This is why effects order can make a cool difference. But it's something you'll need to experiment with for sure. Like I said before...sometimes it's a subtle difference, other times, like where I have to change my compressor to last in line on my bass track, it's more drastic in the change because then I'm compressing my bass as well as the eq's that are before the compressor which opens up new sound options. :)

-Danny

I just tried this out and I definitely hear the difference in placing the EQ before or after the saturation. I guess I just need to do stuff like this more often to train my ears to categorize and recall the kinds of things I'm hearing. I think I'm going to be doing way more experimentation with effect order in the future! Thanks. 

Yep, part of the fun in this field sharke, is what I call "lab work". You just try a few things and log what you do. Some you'll use again and tweak further, some will become "go to" processes....some you'll hate and never use again. It's good to at least try this lab work stuff once a week if you can find the time. I've learned more this way than when I went to school for this stuff. As a matter of fact, in both the classes I took for recording, to this day both teachers call on me when THEY need help. :)

It's like anything else man...some people are theoretically schooled and know things yet don't get the right results due to NOT going outside the box enough. While others may not be as theory oriented may have the trial and error experience "in the field" under their belts. Sometimes you eat the bear, other times the bear eats you. I try my best to stay away from the bear attacks though and like it a lot better when I sneak him and eat him instead. :)

-Danny

Danny Danzi

BMOG


I feel small for asking but I can't figure out the EQ on Pro channel, when I think I tweaking the low end frequency other parts of the EQ moves. What does it mean with the LF button etc are blue vs white? I would assume blue for activated and white for?

Blue vs white? You lost me there BMOG. Can you try to explain your problem again please?
 
-Danny

Sorry I was tired the LF LMF HMF HF when they are blue does that mean they are applied?  If you press them they turn white?  I am confused on how to make sure I am only effectig LF which I assume is Low Frequency

BMOG

Danny Danzi

BMOG


I feel small for asking but I can't figure out the EQ on Pro channel, when I think I tweaking the low end frequency other parts of the EQ moves. What does it mean with the LF button etc are blue vs white? I would assume blue for activated and white for?

Blue vs white? You lost me there BMOG. Can you try to explain your problem again please?
 
-Danny

Sorry I was tired the LF LMF HMF HF when they are blue does that mean they are applied?  If you press them they turn white?  I am confused on how to make sure I am only effectig LF which I assume is Low Frequency

BMOG;
I believe that when they are "activated" the "letters' turn white. 


Therefore, if the letters LF, LMF, etc. are "blue'' they are OFF or de-activated.