i tried to find a working model of a song of my own, that has multiple rhythm tracks that basically are playing the same thing...


i found one, that has 4 rhythm guitar parts that are almost mirroring each other....
but each one is played with a different setup...

there are 2 stratty/crunchy cleanish parts, and 2 more driven rock parts....
one clean and one dirty per each side...

they all are run thru an outboard compressor....but all have different settings, as required for that part, with that guitar, with that amp, with that mic, with that preamp.......etc.

http://soundcloud.com/bats-brew/bb06-waiting-to-shine

i also automated the mix, to bring the cleanish parts up during certain parts, and bring the dirty parts up in other places.
sometimes they're dead even in the mix.

it's a 'moving' mix, for sure.

i do it for subtle ear candy, but it's just the way i hear it.

now, if they were all mixed at the same level throughout, with this kind of arrangment (that never lets up), it would get sonically boring pretty quick.

i'm sure some think's it's boring anyways!!
LOL

but it's just an example of what i was trying to describe with multiple parts playing the same thing

I will check out your link. Here is one my band did that remember had 8 guitar tracks going in the choruses. 2 guitarists, each with 2 takes (different guitars) and with 2 mic's on the cabs. A 57' and L.D. condenser. http://www.reverbnation.c...nk&utm_source=facebook

ok, i hear the sound you're going for there..
that totally works for this kind of arrangment.

i'd say that probably, you could have just done one really thick guitar rhythm a side, made if more full range, and it would have been more powerful.....
but if you can create a rhythm 'sound' with multiple tracks of high gain rhythm, thats totally valid.
i think you're doing that there...

Compared to my live tones I also dial back the gain when we are going to record multiple tracks like that. Otherwise you get a fuzzy build up and no mid range definition. For the most part the condensers are low in the mix (they were used like room mic's at about 4' back off the amps). I was doing it more for different timbres & to be able to fill the stereo field in parts like that. Our band is named "Wallow Sound" I couldn't have it sound thin & wimpy!

I never thought it would make such a big difference, but using two different guitars is really where it's at. I take it further and use different pickups too (selector switch - choosing the ones most appropriate) so that no take is ever through the same pickup/guitar/amp/mic. Once you've gone that far though, I don't think you would need to stress too much about different compressor settings. But it depends on the song. You might want to treat it almost like parallel compression and hit one hard and bring it up underneath with maybe high eq cut - maybe the fattest sounding guitar/amp/mic combo through a double humbuck. But you also might want it to all gel together and pump together. But in that case, maybe a compressor on the guitar bus is better. Or maybe some light compression on individually, then again on the guitar bus to further gel.

At the end of the day, anything can work. Know your options and choose what suits the song best and the direction you want to take the sound. If you're happy just copying compressors and that gives you the sound you want, do it. We all know there is no right or wrong. This here is all just art.

Give it half a day and we should get a nice response for Danny too, I imagine. Always some new goodies to read in those posts, especially one ones on guitars.

ChuckC


Let's say you are recording a rock band and you have the band lay 4 (or more) tracks of the same distorted rhythm part with slightly different tones/timbres... You pull up the 1st and work a compressors settings to give you that perfect blend of bite on the front edge & fatness, You get the attack & release set and it's pumping along with the rhythm just right. Now, Is it common practice to copy & paste that compressor with those settings to the other 3 guitar tracks that are playing the same part? I have done this before with good results and maybe adjusted the threshold a little more or less on some of the tracks, but I wonder if this is the wrong method?

There are quite a few answers to this...which you've received from bit and Bats. When doing the "same" guitar sound multi-tracked, I do what you and bit do. Ctrl/drag. Once the drag is there, as long as the sound was played using the same amp and guitar, you can leave it alone or make subtle tweaks in my opinion.
 
However, and this is where Bats and Matt have made interesting points to consider, Chuck. When layering, if you were to layer the same/similar sound 4 times, you do get stereo due to human timing errors. But for the most part, you will not get "full layering" because the sound is the same. You would need drastic eq differences, not subtle ones. Now, this is easy to do with eq, but for extreme impact, what Bats and Matt told you are the key.
 
Multiple rigs, different guitars, mic's etc are what makes the layering thing come to life. For example, let's take a look at a 4-guitar layer situation. Say we have two guitar players in the band. You track the first guy and his get his tone right, then you track the second guy and get his tone right. Say they use two different amps and guitars. You not only gain stereo sound from there being two different amps and guitars, but you get the human timing inconsistencies of two different players.
 
If you were to compare these two guitar tones to two of the same guitar tone played independently by ONE player, you will notice the two that were done using two different people with 2 different rigs and guitars, will sound much fuller giving you more depth and dimension. The tracks we record of the same sound by the same player will have just HIS human timing inconsistencies. When you record the same guitar sound 4 times, you only pick up little stereo enhancements. The down-side is, because the sound is the same, you pick up a volume boost of the same sound as well.
 
But let's get back to the 4-guitar attack layer. You recorded the guys one time each so far. Now, all real layering is...is like you creating an orchestra out of the guitar parts. The next two guitar sounds you may record to enforce the layer may be smaller sounding. Say the two you recorded already are the main guitars that will be the most up front. When you record two more, you use different sounds, maybe another guitar and amp etc, and create "the high end sizzle" of the layer with these.
 
Since we have the two main guitars panned the widest, you now have a choice of panning these two sizzly guitars just as wide so they add some top end to the ones you already recorded, or you can pan them slightly inwards to take up some additional space in the mix. Or you may NOT want sizzly guitars and may go for two super thick ones that may use a specific room to make them appear bigger and thicker than they are...and you may want these guitars wide panned, and you may bring in the original guitars a little tighter.
 
There are loads of combinations you can do. Most of the big studio's I've worked with in situations like this like to record 3 sets of guitars. The main guitars, guitars with a little more cut and presence, and then some thick, meaty guitars. Remember, these all create "the layered effect" because of the following:
 
Different guitars
Different tones
Different rigs
Different eq curves
Different pans
Different compression settings
Different rooms
Different pre-delay settings in verbs if need be
Different timing inconsistencies IF 2 guys play all the tracks.
 
If we just record four of the same sound (even if they are just slightly different) we lose a lot of the things from that list above that literally create what is known as true layering. You lose:
 
Different tones
Different guitars
Different rigs
Different compression settings due to the compressor being forced to be altered due to a totally new sound/approach
Different rooms (unless you use verb or impulses etc)
Different human timing inconsistencies IF one guy plays on all 4 tracks
 
As you can see, you lose a lot and now the layered sound becomes less apparent. So keep some of this stuff in mind and try experimenting on your own sometime so you can go into a studio situation with a little firepower to sell your clients. I enjoy tracking 2 of the same guitar sound in my stuff. Most times that is enough for me. I may add two more guitars with a little more presence on a chorus part of a song to just have it hit a little harder for that section. But for full layering in a solid "guitar orchestration" type layer, you want to always change it up if you can because it will really give you 1000 times more impact than tracking 4 of the same sound. Hope this helps, best of luck.
 
Matt: You know me too well. LOL! :)
 
-Danny

  
Matt: You know me too well. LOL! :)
 
-Danny

Haha!




Oh and here's another variation which could be easily overlooked - pick gauge. For a start, I use different gauges depending on the sound I want from a part, but you might decide for the higher end 'sizzle' component, a light pick adds a little more pick sound and a bit more brightness for that part, but then a heavy pick for the big power chugs might work better for that part.


Another one you mentioned to me once, Danny, was playing in different positions. So if it's a power chord, maybe playing a B up from 7th fret on first and second strings for the power part, but for the sizzle, play it up from the 2nd fret on the 2nd and 3rd strings, etc. Also a second guitar could go up to the E on 7th fret, 2nd and 3rd string, whilst the first power guitar drops down to a low E power on the 1st and 2nd strings. I've used this combination before on a thick lead hook sound before with great results, so not power chord, just single note lead parts, but simply layering whilst playing the same notes at different parts on the fretboard.


The above method can also work for chords by maybe playing an open Am with guitar panned left and a power chord Am panned right for better separation. SO many options.


I always used to simply rely on just timing differences between takes, but (thanks to Danny) have now started pushing the limits on what other things I can do differently to further enhance differences and really take layering to extremes.


I am especially a fan of playing the same thing at a different spot on the fretboard. I just wanted to emphasise that option. Really makes a HUGE difference as the strings have changed as well, significantly altering the harmonic content.

Another one you mentioned to me once, Danny, was playing in different positions. So if it's a power chord, maybe playing a B up from 7th fret on first and second strings for the power part, but for the sizzle, play it up from the 2nd fret on the 2nd and 3rd strings, etc. Also a second guitar could go up to the E on 7th fret, 2nd and 3rd string, whilst the first power guitar drops down to a low E power on the 1st and 2nd strings. I've used this combination before on a thick lead hook sound before with great results, so not power chord, just single note lead parts, but simply layering whilst playing the same notes at different parts on the fretboard.

 
Exactly! Chord inversion layering is pretty killer too! I just sometimes have a problem relating that stuff to certain clients that may come in that don't know at least basic theory. :) George Lynch (player from the 80's) taught me the chord thing. Not personally..lol...but through listening to his songs. He's done this many times and it really does make a nice difference when used in the right spots. :) Glad that little technique worked out for you, Matt. :)
 
-Danny

All was covered above but just another approach, when you have multiple guitars you can also approach them as layers of transient combinations. Example. guitar right compressed heavily, guitar left medium compression, another guitar right light compression and another guitar left no compression. Through volume control of these stacks you can get some interesting results. The parts can be the same or inversions. You don't have to compress them all with the same settings is the point.