So much music these days has loads going on. There is just something EVERYWHERE. There might only be drums, bass, piano and vocals, but then about 20 different 'sounds' and 'things' that fill in every little gap. Well maybe 20 is exaggerating, but LOTS. How the hell do they do it?!?! I love it. Some people hate it. And that's cool too. But I love it. With contrast of course to make it more interesting - not just flat out full all the time or for every song.

It's typically done with synths I find. Just simple sounds. Not even really musical sometimes... But it just WORKS. Often also very percussive in nature and almost always set back into the mix with lots of reverb/delays.

Whenever I try anything like that I just fail... It sounds too much. I mean the producers that pull off these kind of things are big names usually. They work with so many artists. They must be busy guys making big bucks. But I refuse to believe that I can't pull it off too over time!

I'm forcing myself to just stick to a minimalist approach for now till I know I can pull it off. But I need to keep pushing the boundaries and work up to this level cause it's the kind of style I like to produce.

Any thoughts?

Arrangement and then eq. Can make just about anything fit.

I love all the little dittles inbetween the music.

I actually got into this pretty heavy about 10 years ago. I mean, just really listening, studying and recreating what producers were doing. In particular a CD by Earl Klugh.  That is the best way to get a feel for it IMO. Covers.

When you say "it sounds too much", it's probably just not the right part. But, the "much" might just be the eq.
A part might sit better without too much body to the tone.  Just an idea. 

But yes, It can open up productions quite nicely. 

You simply load up your song w/ the sounds, then start chipping away - even parts of the rhythm sections.  What do they say about sculpture - you just take away what isn't the final product.

@

mattplaysguitar


So much music these days has loads going on. There is just something EVERYWHERE. There might only be drums, bass, piano and vocals, but then about 20 different 'sounds' and 'things' that fill in every little gap. Well maybe 20 is exaggerating, but LOTS. How the hell do they do it?!?! I love it. Some people hate it. And that's cool too. But I love it. With contrast of course to make it more interesting - not just flat out full all the time or for every song.

It's typically done with synths I find. Just simple sounds. Not even really musical sometimes... But it just WORKS. Often also very percussive in nature and almost always set back into the mix with lots of reverb/delays.

Whenever I try anything like that I just fail... It sounds too much. I mean the producers that pull off these kind of things are big names usually. They work with so many artists. They must be busy guys making big bucks. But I refuse to believe that I can't pull it off too over time!

I'm forcing myself to just stick to a minimalist approach for now till I know I can pull it off. But I need to keep pushing the boundaries and work up to this level cause it's the kind of style I like to produce.

Any thoughts?

Hi Matt,
 
When it sounds "too much" you're usually masking. Eq is important but so is panning as well as panning effects and using effects for depth perception. Verbs/impulses as well as use of rooms make a huge difference in how instruments work together as well as why a song sounds produced. The sound stage needs to be orchestrated. Certain things can be wider panned while others need to fill in the gaps.
 
Choosing which instruments will be the power core and which will be the "fillers" will dictate where you go next as well as how things sound. Of course then we have proper compression usage to keep everything tight and out of the way of the others. You should be able to stack a load of instruments in a mix without being too much really. Sometimes you really need to high pass something more than you think. Other times low mids can wash things out and mid MIDS can do the same thing for the other instruments in their range.
 
Another thing to consider is how big your sound sources are. Just about everyone is in search of "big sound". When you find it though, you can't over-use it because if everything sounds big, there's no where left for the sound to go unless you start to thin some things out. Know when to go big and when to thin something out.
 
For example, if you have huge guitars going on, you wouldn't want huge strings with them if the guitars were the focal point. You'd use less mids on the strings and a bit more sparkle to make them cut through allowing your guitars to command the drive. If you wanted big strings, you'd need smaller guitars...so you'd need to cut mids on them. You can go for big drums but then you have to watch out when the drums are too big because everything else will sound small and like it doesn't fit the song.
 
Stereo instruments that are used by default may have to be narrowed. Stereo effects which default to hard L/R need to be controlled so they don't go as wide. They also need to be eq'd properly. The more you take care of your instruments, effects, panning, compression and control your effects, the more space you control to add other things.
 
Cut frequencies in instruments that don't get used. You'll be amazed at how much more you hear in your material. For example, some snare drums are not going to need any low end in them at all. You may high pass up to 250 Hz or more...it depends on the snare. You're not going to need low end in hats or cymbals so kill it all until the low end ooooommm in the cymbals disappears. Kill 5 or 6k and above on basses. Watch left hand low notes on strings or piano that walk on your bass guitar notes. High pass them or don't use them at all. Stuff like this can really leave space for the other things you want to add.
 
Also, and this is important. Don't be afraid to compress heavily. There is a difference between compressing heavily to tighten something up vs. compression with artifacts like pumping and breathing. Even with a good amount of compression, with the right compressor you shouldn't hear artifacts from it if you have it set just right because you'll need this for major production type stuff with loads of instruments.
 
Don't spend too much time eqing while in solo mode. What you hear by itself is just about always a waste when you bring in the other instruments. High pass back up vocals and watch mids...they can kill you.
 
Don't use the same guitar sound more than twice in a mix. Some guys (like myself) like both sides to sound the same. I was never a fan of eqing one side differently than the other because I'm the only guitar player. But when I layer, every two guitars has a new identity.
 
Anyway, that's all I can think of for now. Good luck man....it's good you're experimenting with this stuff. :)
 
-Danny

Thanks for all the tips guys. The consensus seems to be just go for it! I'm pretty confident with giving everything a space appropriately, but I think I just need to put some more time into it. Got some creative juices flowing in my head for some songs so I'll have to see what I can come up with :)

Had a chance to finally play around a bit with a song just then. It's actually working really well! In the verse I have drums, bass, pad, electric rhythm, acoustic rhythm, xylophones fill, simple electric piano noise thing, normal piano 8th root note taps and vocals going on. I sounds like a lot but most of these parts are right back in the mix, barely audible but add so much interest. It sounds busy but not cluttered. Each part is working and serving a purpose subtly. Most are deep in the mix. The chorus is actually much more simple with only drums, bass, organ and guitars. But because of the way it hits you dynamicly and because if a change in leveling of instruments to the vocals and drums etc, it sounds bigger and more exciting and like more is going on than the verse. All through careful production and mixing. Love it!

The tricky bit is to try and not use the same 'fill-in sounds' in every song when I want this feel... I'm glad I tried this. The encouragement helped a lot. I knew this song was just missing something and I've finally found it :)

Less is more? maybe? 

I try (not always succeeding) to approach my songs from the other end of the musical spectrum.... how much can I NOT add and still have it sound good. At times I tend to get songs too full, so I start muting tracks to clean it up or envelope things out. 

It's often after listening to an exported mix for a while before I hear the things that are not supposed to be there. 

Classic example I can think of to demonstrate this: Black Velvet  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXNEmtf9tk  

bass, drums and female vox in verse..... occasional fills..... B3 & guitar  sparse, but so powerful. 
choruses build with some background B3..... 


Of course... the music is hard to focus on if you are watching the video.... but try...

HerbClassic example I can think of to demonstrate this: Black Velvet [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXNEmtf9tkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXNEmtf9tk[/link]

bass, drums and female vox in verse..... occasional fills..... B3 & guitar sparse, but so powerful.
choruses build with some background B3.....


Of course... the music is hard to focus on if you are watching the video.... but try...

 
Herb, excellent example of less is more. I do have to admit one thing though...as much as I love that song and what they didn't do to over-produce it, it almost seems too conservative to me at times. And what's really bad is, it leaves you wanting more and then she disappears from the scene after this mega hit. LOL!
 
The only thing I may have done differently in that song would have been to add in some power guitars on the pre and the chorus. Lightly dirty for the pre to bring things up just a hair, and then on the chorus more powerful guitars...but I'd still keep them low in the mix. You know...just to give it some power and "sizzle" so to speak.
 
But for sure, just as it is, this song rocks hard. I've just always felt a little more power and production would have been nice in a few spots but not all over it as that would take away the quality and the impact. But a little more impact in certain sections would have been a nice addition in my opinion. 
 
-Danny

The only thing I may have done differently in that song would have been to add in some power guitars on the pre and the chorus.

Well, of course you would.....