• Techniques
  • Modern production techniques - Complex production (p.2)
2012/08/08 12:05:01
Danny Danzi
timidi



The only thing I may have done differently in that song would have been to add in some power guitars on the pre and the chorus.



Well, of course you would.....

But just lightly and in the background, I swear Tim! LOL! Just a slight sizzle...nothing metal.
 
-Danny
2012/08/08 12:25:59
AT
Yea, understated, but it works.  After watching the video, maybe they should have called it Black Leather.  I like the hip waders (insert inappropriate comment here).

But Matt, this is a good model to start from.  The drums aren't busy - that is a key.  One of the things we have to watch for is "big, busty busy drums".  Fills up all the space.  If you can get your groove w/o filling up all the cracks, you'll find lots of spots to add fills - drums, guitar, perc, keys or drops of sound.  Hopefully they will transition to the next section of the song and build up.  Arrangement is one of the pro tools that separates a great mix from a good one, or good from ... mehhh.

I find myself working backwards from Herb.  I slather on stuff, then spend the mix time cutting away .

@
2012/08/08 14:19:22
bitflipper
I love busy mixes, and the challenge of making a busy mix clear and distinct. It's mainly a subtractive process, chopping out stuff here and there, thinning parts with EQ, inserting pauses, automating reverb and delays.

The thing is, your brain can only follow a limited number of things at once. Some say the limit is 2 things, others say 3 or 4. I know it's not greater than 4. So if you have 24 tracks of sound, they'd better be working together to make a homogeneous composite sound rather than 24 separate musical threads, and there'd better be just one overriding melody or rhythm component at a time that the listener can easily latch onto.

What I really hate is excessive repetition. While you do need to drum the main theme into your listener's head, once you've established it the challenge is to then keep it from becoming boring. The easiest thing is to add highlights that don't repeat more than once. A verse with no drums, a chorus with no cymbals. A big percussive hit before the last chorus. Dropping out the reverb on a key phrase. Ping-ponging the lead guitar. Substituting a repeating guitar lick with a synth for one bar. Putting the BGVs through a flanger during one phrase. Anything that surprises the listener without making him lose his place.

Listen to Tom Petty's "American Girl". What's the most memorable bit in that song? It's where the BGVs answer "if it takes all night". A one-off highlight. Or another TP example, "Free Fallin'", when the full-spectrum chorus jumps in - just once - on the short phrase "Ventura Boulevard". That was produced by Jeff Lynn, who's a master of the one-shot highlight (and one of the "Ventura Boulevard" chorus voices). He pioneered the technique of suddenly and briefly muting all the instruments as a dramatic surprise. 
2012/08/08 15:40:00
Kalle Rantaaho
bitflipper


Listen to Tom Petty's "American Girl". What's the most memorable bit in that song? It's where the BGVs answer "if it takes all night". A one-off highlight. Or another TP example, "Free Fallin'", when the full-spectrum chorus jumps in - just once - on the short phrase "Ventura Boulevard". That was produced by Jeff Lynn, who's a master of the one-shot highlight (and one of the "Ventura Boulevard" chorus voices). He pioneered the technique of suddenly and briefly muting all the instruments as a dramatic surprise. 

Very good examples you mention, indeed! I love the minimalism of Tom Petty, and it's crowned with such tasty arrangements and engineering.

2012/08/08 23:42:55
Rus W
It's also been said to mix in mono.

Two ways to do this:

1) If working with VIs, they'll mostly be stereo. What I would do is bounce these to audio, Then, do the channel split (on the same track). By doing this, you'll hear how your panning turned out. I do know about R-Mix plug in X2, but for the other apps that don't have it or something similar.

Another way, is to simply convert the stereo file to mono (you won't hear as many "artifacts" - ie: reverb or delay tails, etc.) If it sounds decent in mono, then, it'll sound decent in stereo. The idea is to get the mix right.

When I posted my first tracks here, they were in stereo, but I had too many "artifacts" (and artificial ones) at that (Too much verb, delay), but I was a little less experienced then.

Anyway, what I had done was export the current track, I'm still working on, importing back into the DAW and did the channel split method. To me, the track is mostly center, but even in stereo, I could still hear what's panned and how far.

I had watch a video about SR/BR (sample/bit rate) and I heard that some mix in 24-bit as opposed to 16. The app I use uses 32-bit audio files and thus that's what the midi tracks are when I bounce them. The audio files are 16, but I upped it to 24-bit 96k sample rate and I sound I heard was quite different. I could hear more reverb (and my card is set to default EQ and No Reverb). I also heard delay and the panning was much more distinguished than in 16bit.

Some refer to panning as the "virtual stage" and DAWs have templates to mimic this (ie: a full orchestra template); however, you probably could tell where each instrument sits moreso in 24 than 16. Having said this, they still may be stepping on each each other even in 24 (pan or frequency), but at least for me, I can make the distinction much better. This doesn't mean 24-bit is better than 16 as you still have to get the mix right no matter which you chose. Some may refer to this as "Stereo Separation" which is what panning is, but this is different than tracks that sits on top of each other. I've used this technique as well.

Which brings in this tip: Mix against your card's default. Granted, you still may need to come back to re-EQ. As the default for Graphic/Parametric EQs have the sliders in the middle (0), use this setting on your card or your mix will sound deceiving to you.
2012/08/09 00:20:31
Linear Phase
mattplaysguitar


Whenever I try anything like that I just fail... It sounds too much. I mean the producers that pull off these kind of things are big names usually. They work with so many artists. They must be busy guys making big bucks. But I refuse to believe that I can't pull it off too over time!

I'm forcing myself to just stick to a minimalist approach for now till I know I can pull it off. But I need to keep pushing the boundaries and work up to this level cause it's the kind of style I like to produce.

Any thoughts?

a couple of things..  don't be  so hard on yourself.  a lot of these ultra-complex music productions are not the work of 1 man.  today's major productions are done by teams..  sometimes really big teams.  than if you are talking about underground dance music..  a lot of duos..

Its big work, making big productions.

rather than share how I think this is all being done, because I've never made a track with 50 tracks..  I think I'll just add..   + 1 for the minimalist approach.  "Its not the notes of the music, its the space in between." and think that was Miles Davis who said that..  but I can't remember where I got it from, and a google search did not provide the quote.
2012/08/09 01:49:07
Danny Danzi
All this "minimalist approach" stuff is good...however, if the OP is after a huge prodcution with lots of various instruments, "less is more" is not the answer. It all depends on the genre as well as what you're going for.

If "less is more" is what you're after, you need big sounding instrument sources that are also clear or have a distinct quality about them. Let's rip that Black Velvet tune apart.

Drums: We have a drum sound that is big and makes a statement. Casio drums or even a real drum kit without the impact these drums have in this tune will degrade it instantly. So a big sounding kit with a good forceful kick along with a snare that has an identity like the one used is where we need to be. Don't want to go big with the drums, they must have impact. Listen to that kick drum...this sticks out instantly and gives the tune personality. Listen to the snare...same thing...impact, effects, the whole 9.

Acoustic guitar: not any guitar sound will do. Notice how metalic the acoustic guitar sounds in this. Slight string buzz as well as mic positioning that really make this acoustic stand out. Again, this particular guitar has an identity that would be hard to replace. It's not just a mic'd acoustic...it screams identity and makes the song. Though it is not "big" for what it does, it doesn't have to be.

Electric clean guitar: Really nice bell-like texture that also sound metalic. It also has a slight keyboard type texture to it. Awesome compliment to the haunting keys.

Electric dirty guitar: Any basic blues electric with a strat or tele would work here in my opinion. Nothing to see here other than the tasty licks and solo that were delivered. All that counts of course, but to me this was not a selling point to the song other than the solo and little riffs here and there. The acoustic riffs were more important in my opinion.

Bass: So far we have established an identity with the drums and the acoustic guitar with the electric providing some nice textures. From here we throw a bass in the mix, but it's not just any bass...it's a fretless. Again...another identity instrument. A fretless has a voice like no other. Though the low drone it keep for the majority of the song is the most dominant, listen close to the sound of that drone. It would sound different if that bass had frets. It's also a really nice bass sound and when it does riff, the fretless reason for the bass comes to life to add more identity to the song.

Vocals: Need I mention how incredible this girl is? She could sing with just an acoustic backing her in this song and still deliver it with as much impact. She sells it with incredible vocal control in a bluesey style that just screams that she's lived the blues.

Keys: About as important as the electric guitar in my opinion....good filler, adds dimension and texture and enough of a haunting effect that you can feel the ghosts present within the tune.

In a nutshell, the kick, snare, acoustic and vocals make the song in my opinion. However, the other instruments shine due to their identity. The song is a work of art due to the instrumentation identities that were chosen for it. Without them, it's a boring blues tune with a good singer really. The kick and snare are not even dynamic. Samples that are exactly the same through the song with 0 velocity changes. As a matter of fact, that kick and snare are common samples in quite a few drum modules. But they have impact in this song.

That acoustic is to die for as a lead instrument with those riffs. That bass tone rules and if you don't use a fretless, it changes the sound completely. This to me is a classic case of producing an all-star cast of fine instrumentation...yet all the instruments stick out like sore thumbs in a good way which is what gives the song impact.

For something with more production/instruments, you'd need to re-think your instrument strategy. You can get away with bigger and "more impact" for situations such as this. For something more sonic and rock or with a more orchestrated background of instruments or loads of back up vocals, you have to take an entirely different approach.

Another thing to keep in mind with older recorded music compared to what we have today is, they did NOT use the bass people use today in their mixes. We have way more subs going on which can totally clutter a mix if you're not careful. That's the first thing I hear when I listen to the older stuff.

It's more clear because it's not mixed to focus on all these subs we have today. So with huge productions, you also want to consider how much or how little you push your low end. In most of the 60's music, you heard and felt the bass in it. In the 70's, you started to hear more of the bass than feel it. In the 80's, you heard the bass more than you felt it. In the 90's and beyond, we started getting into those low tunings and more subs entered the picture as well as more "sonics" within mixes....especially with layered guitars all over the place with octaves of the main lines as well as chord inversions to further orchestrate the material.

So my first rule of thumb when creating projects that are going to be huge is to think about how this production will need to be delivered. Do I take the 70's stance and listen to Kansas or YES since they always had lots going on....do I check out some of the 80's pop or rock productions that also had lots going on, or do I look deeper into Trans Siberian Orchestra or some of the good pop stuff like Daughtry and go for that type of production?

You have to look deep inside yourself and figure out what you want to do with your production and then sort of search for a band that may have done something you want to add into your stuff....or at least base your starting point using this band as your template. The best way is to examine what they did and listen over and over while taking notes. If you want deeper low end with more of a sonic sound, you need to check out more current stuff. If you want the middle of the road where everything was sort of balanced, go 80's. If you want a level playing field with warmth and the ability to hear your bass as well as feel it, 70's production is where you should be.

Remember, the low end makes or breaks a project. If you have a common ground with your low end and you're not pushing mids to the point of congestion, you should be able to fit as many instruments as possible in a mix without a problem. As soon as several start to dominate a frequency area, you're capped until you fix that area.

Another important tip...just about every engineer I know goes for too much of a finished sound. What do I mean by that? If you heard what a real mix from a major label sounded like BEFORE it was mastered, you'd be quite shocked. Because most of us are one-man operations, we do it all. But the mistake lots of people make is they try to make their mixes sound like mastered material and they over-do it. The key to your mix and production should be a level playing field...then when you master, you should just be able to polish things up and add all the right stuff. Byt the time most people master, they already have too much sub low and congestive mids in the picture.

Just try some of these things I'm saying...they honestly will make a world of difference. Try to create a balanced mix that doesn't favor anything or lash out with lows. Then, when you master it, add some of the things you think the mix is missing a little at a time. Don't rely on reference material too much...you're trying to mix to something that's been mastered. Get the level playing field first, then add or subtract as necessary. It can really improve the over-all sound by leaps and bounds. :)

-Danny
2012/08/09 03:45:47
Linear Phase
@ Danny,

I definitely appreciate the perspective you have on low end.  I think that's great stuff.  As for minimalist..   All I meant was..  there's more than one way to skin a kitten...  this is this:  it works..  I like it  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILYXz-tcZG4  ( gucci mane - freak you pay me )

Here is a huge production..  I wouldn't even try and compete with this.. but that is just me..  I have to be smarter than this..  I don't have 15 mega producers at my beckon call...  http://www.vevo.com/watch/justin-bieber/as-long-as-you-love-me-audio/USUV71200862  ( beiber - as long as you love me )

just chopping up bieber's vocals..  must have taken four guys a few weeks.

here's another production in a diff style, that I wouldn't even try and compete with on any level.  This takes 1 person..  months, and months.  This is frikking huge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qrRzNidzIc  ( breaking ben - I will not bow )



anyways..  that's what I meant by, "minimal."  i did snot mean, "a clap, a kick, and a flute."  me and my kazoo per se...

I want to have smart productions.  not big productions.  I don't have the time for big productions.   big productions have 15, or 20 producers..   smart productions...  I want to do smart.  I don't worry bout big

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6475u0wEG0 ( chapman - fast car )

EDIT = when i saw how many tracks was in the Cori Yarkin (spelling) Cakewalk Bundle File, in our store account..  my jaw dropped.  I was like, "you are kidding me!"  There must be 1.5 times as many in the Justin Beiber song I linked in this thread... Fortunately we know, justin bieber music = suck.  therefore..  amount of tracks, is not equal to how good the music is going to be.
2012/08/09 06:44:01
Rus W
So, which do you mean because in one instance, you say: "I don't mean just one track," but acknowledge disbelief when viewing the "Floating" track count.

You're right that big productions aren't necessarily "smart," but neither are small productions.

I'm sure you've heard songs that were severely condensed and while they may have sounded better, you gotta admit something was missing which was Danny's point.

Certainly a 50+ track song could see some trimming; however, one has to see how it all fits and try to make it fit before you start taking away stuff. Trim the highs to get more lows or trim the lows to get more highs. However, nothing may need to go provided you've arranged it mixed well.

Let's take out the strings section in the orchestra. The other three sections can manage, but if the strings are very important, then don't ditch them because it's too much. They aren't referred to as the "backbone" for nothing (not to mention the Principle Violin leading everybody)

So, I guess the question is: What is smart production? This can vary from person to person and while 10-15 producers can make a mess of an album (I know of one inparticular), from a composition perspective when working with just one or two - have you found yourself saying: "All these songs sound alike?"

What is "smart" composition? Variance. Dynamics, Rhythm, Part Distribution, how the Melody and Harmony are played, even if it's the exact same thing, focusing what's around them (Part Distribution) - not in an isolated manner.

Big isn't always bad if you focus on the little things that make up the big picture. An album would still be a mess if one person was all over the place as opposed to 10-15. What if those 10-15 managed something cohesive? It's not impossible. That's big, but also smart! See you can have your cake and eat it too (no pun intended)
2012/08/09 11:31:05
Danny Danzi
Linear Phase


@ Danny,

I definitely appreciate the perspective you have on low end.  I think that's great stuff.  As for minimalist..   All I meant was..  there's more than one way to skin a kitten...  this is this:  it works..  I like it  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILYXz-tcZG4  ( gucci mane - freak you pay me )

Here is a huge production..  I wouldn't even try and compete with this.. but that is just me..  I have to be smarter than this..  I don't have 15 mega producers at my beckon call...  http://www.vevo.com/watch/justin-bieber/as-long-as-you-love-me-audio/USUV71200862  ( beiber - as long as you love me )

just chopping up bieber's vocals..  must have taken four guys a few weeks.

here's another production in a diff style, that I wouldn't even try and compete with on any level.  This takes 1 person..  months, and months.  This is frikking huge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qrRzNidzIc  ( breaking ben - I will not bow )



anyways..  that's what I meant by, "minimal."  i did snot mean, "a clap, a kick, and a flute."  me and my kazoo per se...

I want to have smart productions.  not big productions.  I don't have the time for big productions.   big productions have 15, or 20 producers..   smart productions...  I want to do smart.  I don't worry bout big

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6475u0wEG0 ( chapman - fast car )

EDIT = when i saw how many tracks was in the Cori Yarkin (spelling) Cakewalk Bundle File, in our store account..  my jaw dropped.  I was like, "you are kidding me!"  There must be 1.5 times as many in the Justin Beiber song I linked in this thread... Fortunately we know, justin bieber music = suck.  therefore..  amount of tracks, is not equal to how good the music is going to be.

And I appreicate your response as well. I guess me using "minimalist" singled you out....and because I posted right after you, it made it look like I was talking dirtectly to you. My apologies for that....all the stuff I mentioned was said "in general" where I should have used "less is more" instead of "minimalist". So please accept my apology if what I said came out wrong or you (and for anyone else too...I'm sorry) felt I was trying to be confrontational. :)
 
Everyone has made strong comments that matter and are credible. I think that what we may be all missing is how much production Matt may be talking about. If he's talking about loads of instruments in the same mix, this is what I meant by saying the minimal thing isn't quite going to get him where he wants to be. Lots of instruments changes the whole production method and would need to be treated differently.
 
You mention Cori's song....I so swear Linear, I was going to comment about that as that song to me, is a prime example of a large production. Though I don't agree with some of the instrument choices there, it's a really good representation on a large pop production. I actually have my own mix of that song..lol...because I just had to fix the things I felt were wrong with it. Redid all the drums, the bass and the rhythm guitars. It made a world of difference in my opinion.
 
Now you mention smart as opposed to big....this I agree with, however, being smart may not illustrate the song the way it should be. Meaning, sometimes the stuff you do that is a little dangerous or on edge is what makes it have more impact or may even make a mix bigger.
 
I have two students I'm working with currently that are turning into fine engineers. The only problem they seem to be having is their instrument choices and the sound sizes of the instruments they are using. This is where I have to teach them what to listen for. What is a sound considered a winner and when should one be avoided for a particular tune....this is what they are learning now. But if we take the sound size stuff away, these fine gentlemen are producing some pretty serious mixes with production that makes my cpu go past the mid way point. LOL! That to me is impressive...especially when the mix is really good.
 
So in a situation like this, at times they are playing it smart...but by being smart, sometimes they are settling for things that could be bigger instead of smarter. If we stick a small drum sound that is uneffected or really fake sounding in that Black Velvet tune, there goes the impact. This is what I'm trying to teach my students. The wrong drum sound can alter the entire mix as well as its delivery. Effected or big sounds are like riding a raging bull. Harnessing them is no easy chore...so the smarter thing would be to go smaller. But see, this is where you *could* lose that impact where to me...smarter isn't always the right choice.
 
After listening to the links you've shared, it's easy to see you and I are definitely on different ends of the "complex production" fence. I don't consider any of those complex or loaded with tracks. This is where I guess we need to hear from Matt to see what HE considers complex production or lots of tracks.
 
When I think of big productions, Trans Siberian Orchestra comes to mind....Rascal Flatts version of "Life is a Highway" is a good example, Daughtry songs, Nightwish, Dream Theater, The Beatles (some of the stuff on Abbey Road is insane) Boston, Styxx, Queen, Muse, Pink Floyd, Soilwork etc.
 
Then we have "big sounding productions" that are along the lines of smarter with less instruments. Sixx A.M.'s "Life is Beautiful" is amazing....Creed's "Overcome" is great (I'm not a Creed fan either but that mix speaks to me) the new Adrenaline Mob (Mike Portnoy ex drummer from Dream Theater) is HUGE with production SIZE yet is just guitars, bass and drums. So it depends what Matt is looking for and considers "complex" or "big" in production.
 
I gotta disagree with ya on Biebers music....I like it and think the kid has talent for what HE does. Most people hate my style because I have a very strong 80's vibe about me...I would hope they would look past that and at least think "yeah, for what you do...it's cool, it's just not my bag". :)
 
-Danny
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