batsbrew

room treatment can sometimes be more critical than the monitors.  

:-)

Did you see that I had specifically acknowledged the value of your advice?

:-)

Extremely helpful,  thanks Mike!

yes, but apparently JD missed it.

mike_mccue

batsbrew

room treatment can sometimes be more critical than the monitors.  

:-)

Did you see that I had specifically acknowledged the value of your advice?

:-)

JD1813


With all the great posts here on modern production techniques, using EQ, Compression, Busses, Sends, etc etc   I'd really like to know what are some brands & models of "decent"  (good quality, lower cost) monitor systems?  What gripes me to no end is to spend hours putting a mix together, using headphones primarily and then I switch to 2 different speaker systems to listen and adjust levels more.... only to find that when I get the MP3 on my car system, I find a horrible mix with vocals too hot or instrumentation totally out of whack....  !   What ARE some decent brands and models of monitor systems?   What are you all using?   

Hi John,
 
I'll tell you what I've done to make the choices I've made. In the beginning, I used to grab reference material and go to a store and listen to my stuff on each set of monitors. The mistake *I* made was coming home with the set that sounded the best instead of the set that had a happy medium of everything. If something pushes low end, you probably don't want it because it will give you the idea that there is enough bass in your mix to where you may end up with "bass light" mixes.
 
The same with monitors that may push highs, or be too warm. What they push can be colors that literally make you make decisions that may be false. So you want to be careful with monitors that may sound incredible. You also don't want to get monitors that are too big for your room as this can present a problem. Nothing bigger than 8's and even there, in some small rooms they can be over-kill.
 
I like to have a sub at all times. Even if a set of monitors may seem to give me enough bass, it's not the same as having a sub kick you in the teeth with the different low end it delivers. This to me has been a game changer and something I will never do without. The right amount of sub you choose is extremely important. Too much, you will mix bass light. Too little, you will mix bass heavy. So you'll need to experiment. Most times for me, I use just a little of my sub to fill things out. If I can feel it and hear it, I'm using too much. You want to use enought to where when you kill it, you know it's missing yet when you add it in, it's not over-bearing.
 
Room correction etc: Depending on your room, you may need to add some of this if you are really having problems. I've been luck in many of my rooms by just using ARC by IK Multimedia. In my big studio though, we have bass traps and foam etc. I just don't want that stuff messing a room in my house. I think it's ugly for a room in your house...and like I say, ARC has helped me enough to where I don't need that stuff. It doesn't work for everyone, but I'm batting 1000 with it.
 
ARC (at the worst case scenario) will eq your monitors to be flat in response. Even if you went out and bought the nicest Genelec's or Event's that money could buy, they need to be eq'd. This to me is even more important that room correction decor. In all studio's these days, they hire a guy to come and analyze your room. He runs some noise through your monitors and it shows him what you are missing on a graph. You supply and EQ (most people use a Rane for this) and he dials in the stuff you are missing and takes out the stuff that is too dominant. You never touch this eq again and it sets your monitors up to be flat.
 
ARC does this same thing in a sense and does it from many different places in the room. The dude that did the analyzing is doing it from your major sweet spot...ARC does it from several so it helps the monitors to sound good all over instead of just "that sweet spot."
 
As for brands, I have many here and feel they all have their place. My main monitors at this time are Adam A-7's with the sub 8 that was made for them. I love the sound of them and they are my work horses at this time. I also have NS-10's, Tannoy, Tascam, Genelec, Rokit 8's with the sub 10 that comes with them and an old set of Radio Shack Optimus which are cool to give me that consumer sort of quality. I also use 2 sets of regular pc speakers that are really cool too. Both have a sub and are great for that consumer type listening environment. I use Altec Lansing at my one studio, and a set of Logitech X-53's here. I could actually mix or master on them because they really sound good to me. I of course had to correct them to be more flat, but that was simple and painless.
 
Anyway, monitor selection is a lot like buying a guitar really. It's a soul mate sort of thing that you'll just need to look deeper into. What works for one guy may not be to your liking...so you'll have to do some trial and error as well as maybe purchasing and returning. I've done that way too many times...but it gets you one step closer to where you need to be. :) Best of luck!
 
-Danny

batsbrew


yes, but apparently JD missed it.

No - sorry,  I just got busy.  I appreciated both of you commenting and the combination of factors I have to take a look at.  I wont' be rushing out to buy speakers, obviously, without analyzing the room situation I'm confined to as well.   I know it's a factor.   So thanks both of you!     -John

mike_mccue

batsbrew

room treatment can sometimes be more critical than the monitors.  

:-)

Did you see that I had specifically acknowledged the value of your advice?

:-)

+1 on ARC...a real life-saver.

I would also recommend Har-Bal to help you identify and determine what type of mix issues you are having. A well mixed and eq'ed track will sound good everywhere.

Leaving aside other, more practical issues, all of which probably are relevant... I think that probably most cars sound bad, but you are just far more criticial of your own music in the car, while you have already long since internalized what the commercial music you listen to really sounds like and your brain just compensates a lot for the deficiencies of the car's sound system. And you probably don't listen nearly as critically to that stuff in your car. The guy who mixed it probably thinks it sounds like crap in your car as well, relative to what he was hearing when he mixed it.

I had spoken of adequate amplification earlier.

It's my opinion that using speakers systems that are under powered creates a difficult mixing situation. How can you mix the critical low end when the sound file is being turned into mush by a under powered amplifier?

You can do it... but it will seem difficult.




Mixes made on accurate playback systems translate to more playback systems than mixes made on mushy systems.



The speakers I use day to day have amps on the woofers that are rated at 250 watt (0.1% THD into 2 ohms). The amp in the (added for clarity) subwoofer I use is rated at 260 watts (0.1% THD into 2 ohms)



Now let's look at some name brand price point speakers that people often buy.


KRK Rockit 8:  The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 70 watts (no THD info available)

KRK sub 10: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 150 Watts ( Continuous @ 1% THD+N @ 100Hz )
 
Adam A7: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 50 watts (no THD info available)

Genelec 8040a: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 90 watts (no THD info available)



Even the venerable NS10 can be considered. They sound a lot different when you have a nice amp driving them. They sound nasty when you don't. So, if someone is speaking of NS-10s I am immediately curious about the rest of their speaker system. Is it powered by Bryston? Or Alesis?






A lot of folks have stumbled in to the circumstance where great reviews and sort of good enough sound seems to justify spending money on what is actually low grade gear... and they end up listening to mush in the low frequency areas when they need to actually be listening to what is in the sound file.

It's not any bodies fault that good speaker systems cost a whole lot of money... they do and nobody can change that so most vendors have adopted a price point take all your budget approach to distribution. A lot of companies don't even bother making a good speaker because they know that very few people will save up the money to buy an actual good system.

We all know what it costs... it's more than any of us want to spend.



If you have the nerve to be critical about what you are listening to you should endeavor to listen to an amp that couples with your speaker to realize a system that reproduces your sound file accurately.


If you start with "mush", and then you add a subwoofer you get "mush +".


Try to avoid that.


If you start with a play back system that is adequately specified and then use some old fashioned speaker placement recommendations (get the speakers off the walls) you will find it is not so hard to make a mix that translates to other systems.



BTW, effective speaker placement is FREE, and it's effective. That's why I recommend it before any other compensation or purchase of yet another low grade speaker system.

 

It seems to me that a good place to start is with one really good speaker system. There's no merit in owning several examples of why bother speaker systems when what is  really useful is to have at least one setup that is worth listening critically too.



In my opinion, adequate power and just about any speaker is a more useful choice than any of the fancy under powered price point boxes the sales guys stick people with these days.


How many times do you have to get stuck with mush before you can have waited to purchase something adequate?

It took me while to save up for the primary speaker systems I use every day... but I knew it was worth every penny...  and I'm glad to have the perspective of someone who enjoys good sound on speakers that I don't have to think of as adversaries.


Disclaimer for those that need it spelled out: The facts I posted are facts. The opinions and conclusions I have drawn by interpreting the facts are my personal opinion.


:-)
Oh btw, did I mention speaker placement? It's free and incredibly effective.
:-)


all the very best,
mike




edit spelling

mike_mccue


I had spoken of adequate amplification earlier.

It's my opinion that using speakers systems that are under powered creates a difficult mixing situation. How can you mix the critical low end when you sound file is being turned into mush by a under powered amplifier?

You can do it... but it will seem difficult.




Mixes made on accurate playback systems translate to more playback systems than mixes made on mushy systems.



The speakers I use day to day have amps on the woofers that are rated at 250 watt (0.1% THD into 2 ohms). The subwoofer I use is rated at 260 watts (0.1% THD into 2 ohms)



Now let's look at some name brand price point speakers that people often buy.


KRK Rockit 8:  The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 70 watts (no THD info available)

KRK sub 10: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 150 Watts ( Continuous @ 1% THD+N @ 100Hz )

Adam A7: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 50 watts (no THD info available)

Genelec 8040a: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 90 watts (no THD info available)



Even the venerable NS10 can be considered. They sound a lot different when you have a nice amp driving them. They sound nasty when you don't. So, if someone is speaking of NS-10s I am immediately curious about the rest of their speaker system. Is it powered by Bryston? Or Alesis?






A lot of folks have stumbled in to the circumstance where great reviews and sort of good enough sound seems to justify spending money on what is actually low grade gear... and they end up listening to mush in the low frequency areas when they need to actually be listening to what is in the sound file.

It's not any bodies fault that good speaker systems cost a whole lot of money... they do and nobody can change that so most vendors have adopted a price point take all your budget approach to distribution. A lot of companies don't even bother making a good speaker because they know that very few people will save up the money to buy an actual good system.

We all know what it costs... it's more than any of us want to spend.



If you have the nerve to be critical about what you are listening to you should endeavor to listen to an amp that couples with your speaker to realize a system that reproduces your sound file accurately.


If you start with "mush", and then you add a subwoofer you get "mush +".


Try to avoid that.


If you start with a play back system that is adequately specified and then use some old fashioned speaker placement recommendations (get the speakers off the walls) you will find it is not so hard to make a mix that translates to other systems.



BTW, effective speaker placement is FREE, and it's effective. That's why I recommend it before any other compensation or purchase of yet another low grade speaker system.



It seems to me that a good place to start is with one really good speaker system. There's no merit in owning several examples of why bother speaker systems when what is  really useful is to have at least one setup that is worth listening critically too.



In my opinion, adequate power and just about any speaker is a more useful choice than any of the fancy under powered price point boxes the sales guys stick people with these days.


How many times do you have to get stuck with mush before you can have waited to purchase something adequate?

It took me while to save up for the primary speaker systems I use every day... but I knew it was worth every penny...  and I'm glad to have the perspective of someone who enjoys good sound on speakers that I don't have to think of as adversaries.


Disclaimer for those that need it spelled out: The facts I posted are facts. The opinions and conclusions I have drawn by interpreting the facts are my personal opinion.


:-)
Oh btw, did I mention speaker placement? It's free and incredibly effective.
:-)


all the very best,
mike

That's great stuff Mike...especially what you said about the NS-10's and even those new NS-10 replacements...H something or other...can't remember the exact model, but I used them 2 weeks ago. I use a Hafler 500 stereo power amp and a Hafler 250 that I love. It makes an incredible difference on the NS 10's that in my opinion, need all the help they can get. LOL!
 
I have to say though, I sort of disagree with the comments about the powered monitors these days. The first few generations of these may have been the mush case, but I sincerely think they have improved things to where they are gearing these amps at lower power to still deliver the goods. The only powered monitors I have are the Adams and my Rokits...and neither sounds like mush to me.
 
My mixes are translating well everywhere so though there may be some truth to what you say there, I sincerely feel things have come a long way. But I can say this...I HAVE noticed a great difference between some of my old power amps and the Haflers. I have a few Crown amps around here as well as an old Tascam and a Carver (not CarVIN lol) that I used for years....the Hafler obliterates them to where you can really hear a difference. With my powered monitors, they get the same rich, crisp quality that I get from the monitors that are powered by my Haflers. Like....the sound is different because the monitors all have their own characteristics, but you can tell the song I'm listening to is transferring properly because it sounds the same on all my systems.
 
Put in the Crown, Carver or the Tascam, and there's definitely a quality difference to where the monitors powered by those amps take on a new form. I'd also have to say that in my experience, the cheaper monitors by say Alesis and Mackie have sort of that "mush" sound going on. I don't think those companies push as hard to deliver the goods in their powered monitors the way Event, Genelec or Adam may. You can just tell there's a drastic difference that isn't just coming from the monitor characteristics themselves. It's just something you'd have to live with and experience for yourself for a decent amount of time and you'd see/hear what I mean with the newer powered monitors. The newer more pro stuff seems to be geared to deliver the goods in all areas...at least that's been my experience with it. :)

All I can do John is tell you what I do here.

I use Mackie MR-5 monitors. I have a "home stereo" Polk Audio sub. (10" 100w )  and I use ARC. 

The MR-5's:  I went to the music store and auditioned numerous "studio reference monitors" all side by side with the same program material. I don't care what anybody says that these things are supposed to be flat, and yeah I agree they are supposed to be, BUT....listening to them side by side with the same material through them, they all have their own unique sound.  So, buy a pair that you have auditioned and like the way they sound.

Most stores have a 30 day no questions return policy so if they sound like crap at home.... you can always take them back. 

BUT... if they sound like crap at home.... it might not be the speakers. They are supposed to be flat and non-colored. Stereo speakers and car speakers are specifically designed to be biased to one degree or another to make the music sound as good as possible..... so less than perfect sound from studio monitors is not a problem. 

It simply means that hopefully, you are now, actually hearing what the mix really sounds like.  So dig in and mix it so it sounds good on the flatter response studio monitors.


I added a Polk Audio 10" sub to the studio when I found it on sale at a no-brainer price. The sub simply allows me to hear what is happening in the lower end of the spectrum. A pair of 5" speakers can only move so much air. 

Using this setup, I was able to get a good mix that seems to translate well to stereo, MP3 player and car. In the search to improve that even more, I too opted to purchase ARC and set it up. 

In the studio set up I have, I am not able to do much in the way of acoustic treatment to the room. It is a corner of an upstairs room that doubles as my office as well and my wife will not allow anything drastic/visible.  The room has carpet, furniture, and acoustic tiles for the ceiling and sounds OK. But, I know it is not the ideal acoustic environment. To try to compensate for that I have ARC. I set it up and have it turned on when I am in the mixing stages in the music. It compensates to one degree or another for some (not all) of the room deficiencies. So I do believe it is making an improvement in the mixes I have used it on. 

If you are mixing with cans..... I have done that too, and still do when there is a need to work quietly, I have no problem with folks who need to mix with cans, but understand that they are not getting the best mix that way. The first and best thing you can do is to purchase a pair of studio monitors. The sub and ARC can come later. Get a pair you like and fit your budget. For me...$300 to $500 would be a good starting budget. The smaller cones are in the lower price range. 8" cones sound better with more low end but are a few hundred more per pair. For home studio use, the $300/pair average price works well. 

If you read Mike Senior's book on audio, (Mixing Secrets) he starts the first few chapters with monitors...he digs deep into the various kinds, strengths and weaknesses of each kind, and much much more that is some interesting stuff on a very technical level........and it's easy to become very confused but essentially, buy a pair you like and learn their sound, their strengths and weaknesses, and learn how to mix good sounding stuff on them given all the unique characteristics of the space you mix and work in. 

Hope this helped you clarify.