Great post, Jack. That's been my issue as well. I actually do good with poetry.....it's making the words that are used "musical" that becomes the challenge. Certain words just don't have that "ring" to them, yet when used in a poetic sense, nothing else can replace them because they are power words. Those same power words used in song often times just don't work.

I just wish I could come up with musical lyrics the way I can write music....those that can do both are truly blessed in my opinion.

-Danny

i think i do alright with lyrics when i let inspiration (or quite honestly, a stream of consciousness) bring them out. my issue is always "the hook", whether it be lyrical or melodic. i've written some decent lines, but "the hook" continues to evade me. not that i'm always interested in a hook - and that's its own thread i suppose , but i've come to realize that if i'm going to have a hook, i have to start with that and build the rest of the song around it. that comes back to intent.


one thing i've "unlearned" is the idea that art is created in isolation. i think the saying is good artists borrow, and great artists steal. and i've accepted that being inspired by the works of others is probably the first step in the right direction for most artists to take. the more you read (or listen to), the better. 

one thing i've "unlearned" is the idea that art is created in isolation. i think the saying is good artists borrow, and great artists steal. and i've accepted that being inspired by the works of others is probably the first step in the right direction for most artists to take. the more you read (or listen to), the better.

 
This is a very true statement, and works for all forms of art, be it music, painting, photography, etc. 
 

I've written some decent lines, but "the hook" continues to evade me. 

 
We just need to keep our ears open and recognise that when our drummer says something like, "It's been a hard days night", while having had one to many to drink.... that could make a good hook.    
 
I know that I have started to train myself to kind of listen for statements while out and about in my everyday life.  I can't tell you how many times recently that I will hear someone say something and my brain kicks in and says....  "hey, that is a good song line".  I then start scrambling for a pen and something to write it down on quickly.  I like the smart phone idea..... going to start using that one.

I do not know whether I write in a pop medium or in a jazzier medium or whatnot. I do tend towards more of a stream of consciousness style and that 'hooks' tend to elude me...aaacch who knows

I hear things in everyday life that inspires a song idea.... generally it is a phrase that gives me an interesting title. Could be the words to a song on the radio, or something said in a conversation.....

I generally make a mental note of that and sometimes I will write it on a scrap piece of paper. I'll kick it around mentally for a few days and sometimes ideas start to collect around it and other times not. 

The ones with ideas will sometimes become the next song I work on. 

As a drummer, I tend to write lyrics to fit a rhythmic pattern.  I like to write to a defined chord progression or hook and make my lyrics fit the music rather than the other way around.  As a writer, I get myself in trouble if I try to write lyrics first and then create music to fit.  When I do this, I tend to get too Profound and my lyrics just sound pompous and pretentious.

Another writer once told me that pop/rock songs combine fine poetry with great music to create a mediocre compromise of both.

My favorite way to write lyrics is to start with a drum/bass/rhythm guitar pattern and create a melodic "template".  This template will define not only the general melody and feel of the vocal line, but also the rhythm of each line.  I'll break it down into the number of syllables for each line.  I'll choose a rhyming scheme (sometimes, I paint myself in a verbal corner with this).  I'll choose a textual topic or story that I think either flows from the mood of the music or is the complete opposite.  I'll write each line to fit the rhyming and rhythmic scheme I've defined.  I'll review the song as a whole to determine if there is a progression of thought or a story line that plays out the way I want to hear it.  If not, then I adjust and/or rewrite as necessary.

Some songs practically write themselves in a single session.  Some take forever.

Music/ Lyric can be poetic, but Poetry is not music.

As you have mentioned U-Bubba, lyric has to follow a rhythmic shceme, melody line and have a sonic timber that is pleasing to the song.  Sometimes, the right word just might not sound right, the way if rolls off you tongue or moves through your vocal chords.  On another forum, I once pointed out to a fellow songwriter that the words he was using had way to many plosives in them and he was never going to be able to sing it with out all kinds of mic troubles.  Sure enough, he said I was dead on when he went to record the song.

I have had to on numberous occasions, change words or entire lines of a verse because they just did not sound "musical" in the finished song. 

MakeShift


Music/ Lyric can be poetic, but Poetry is not music.

As you have mentioned U-Bubba, lyric has to follow a rhythmic shceme, melody line and have a sonic timber that is pleasing to the song.  Sometimes, the right word just might not sound right, the way if rolls off you tongue or moves through your vocal chords.  On another forum, I once pointed out to a fellow songwriter that the words he was using had way to many plosives in them and he was never going to be able to sing it with out all kinds of mic troubles.  Sure enough, he said I was dead on when he went to record the song.

I have had to on numberous occasions, change words or entire lines of a verse because they just did not sound "musical" in the finished song. 

+1 Mike ... there is often some give and take of lyrics during production and post-production for me.  I'll add, musicality is tricky for me on many levels.
 
+1 UbiquitousBubba: stated:
"Another writer once told me that pop/rock songs combine fine poetry with great music to create a mediocre compromise of both."
 
I suppose there is a sacrifice/compromise of talents ... that combine to 'make' many pop-songs.  The same holds true with paintings (for me): Like a great portrait can take away from the landscape and vice-versa.
 
OTOH, I myself discovered Danny is a great lyricist and singer (several of my songs): He wrote the lyrics for the verses of "Trouble in the Hood II" ... and sung them impeccably ... albeit well after the chorus-hook and song rhythm and melodics.

One thing I intended to communicate, but did not, was that there is more art than science in songwriting.  All the techniques and processes and proven methodologies in the world will never be enough without the artistry that turns ideas into sounds and words.  I find it interesting how so many musicians approach songwriting differently, and yet they end up at the same place.

It's fairly easy to write an OK song.  A good song is more difficult.  A great song is a rare thing.  There are techniques we can learn from one another to improve our skills, but the art must come from within.  As with learning an instrument, talent only gives you a head start, but practice is essential to master songwriting.

I'm sure this is obvious to everyone here, but I find it helpful (to me) to state the simple, obvious things as a reminder.

PhilipOTOH, I myself discovered Danny is a great lyricist and singer (several of my songs): He wrote the lyrics for the verses of "Trouble in the Hood II" ... and sung them impeccably ... albeit well after the chorus-hook and song rhythm and melodics.

 
LOL you're too kind to me my friend. Even I get lucky once in a while. Hahahaha! :) Thanks for the kind words.
 
Bubba: good post man...this is soo true. I even think it can be applied to the engineering field which is why most times I sound a little anti-science. At the end of the day, all the formula's in the world won't help a person with a great song or a great mix unless they have that spark deep inside....with a little bit of know-how of course.
 
Unlike others, I would say my first 20 songs were really bad. Fair ideas but nothing that would impress anyone other than maybe my family at the time. The more you do it, the better you become.
 
There's another thing too that I feel is super important and that is, jamming with other people or collaborating. When you jam with someone, they will always play something you wouldn't play. Each little segment you learn from a person is something to archive for later.
 
Ever jam with someone and you know a 12-barre blues progression, yet they put a different spin on it that you may have heard yet might not have ever played before? Stuff like this is just priceless because it teaches us formulas and song parts. One you know enough song parts, when you hear people playing them, all you need is the key and you can play along.
 
I do a lot of writing and collaborating with Philip as you know. He's way different than me in the writing department, but because it's so different and his songs are more based on feel instead of formulation, it becomes a challenge to me in a good way. There are times I may have to run one of his riffs back 10 times or more to learn what he's playing to get a feel for it. Once I learn it, it gets logged into my mind and I may use a variation of it at some point for myself or for someone else. Each time I do a project with someone, it teaches me something. I've learned more about music and writing doing it with other people than I have while doing it on my own. Collabs are cool because it sometimes stops a song from being too one-dimensional. I think that's what makes the best songs...when everyone puts a piece of themselves into it.
 
Proof of this is my first album compared to my last album. I thought the first one was a decent oeffort for a one man operation, but the second one smoked it because I had others writing with me giving the songs a bit more luster in different areas. I can't see me ever doing another album all by myself again. It's also more exhilerating to write with others as you begin to feed off of them as they feed off of you. At the end of the day I think I personally get a better song out of it that way. :)
 
-Danny