MakeShift


Excellent audio example Danny.  The sustain and feel is exactly what I have always felt was missing from the sims....along with a little fizz.  Using a hardware POD 2 seemed to always have better feel and sustain than the sims.

I don't currently have a hardware compressor, but I am wondering if an Art Tube Pre, TS808, or boost pedal might do something similar.  I am going to have to give this a try now over the weekend.

I'd give it a try.


Before I bought the compressor, the word that always came to mind was "density" - that's what all amp sims seem to lack. I guess it also accounts for sustain, as demonstrated by Danny's exemple.


There's something happening when you plug a guitar into an amp - the sound doesn't just get louder and more distorted, it builds up, it grows teeth, giving it that little something - almost like a 200 lbs rotweiller pulling at the end of its chain - the sound wants out.

Amp sims just don't do that. The distortion and eq'ing is all there but they miss that little spark that ignites the whole thing. 

The POD has it's own shortcomings IMHO, but it isn't really plagued by this particular one as you've noticed.

 Great example Danny. I'm not really sure what the difference is between amp simms and something like the Line 6 HD500 when it comes to compression. They both are software programs inside hardware and both have compression built into them. You have me curious to make a comparison between the compressor in the HD500 and an outboard compressor. I know when I push the compression button in it things seem to push better.

 I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm wondering if  the compressors in those types of units will get the same results. TC Helicon also has analog compression built into the Nova line which may fare better than a digital compressor in the HD500. What I understand you to be saying is that  outboard analog compression is superior to the digital compression and maybe even the compression built into dedicated digital guitar boxes.

 Without getting into too much technical and too far over my head I'm just trying to understand why one type of compression works and the other type doesn't seem to work as well. If they are both compressors they should do the same things or very similar. Or no?

Can't tell about the Pod HD because I've never worked w/ it.

One thing though - while we were in Russia, I had to rely on software exclusively. I cut a few guitar oriented tracks, and had an awful time trying to nail the lead lines. Not that I didn't have sufficient gain - I was running the signal as hot as I could w/o clipping. But the sound just fell apart.

After 3 months of that regimen, I started doubting my "talent" as a guitar player, seriously. I thought I'd just lost it or something. Man, I know guys cutting records w/ much less experience and dare I say adequate playing and it works, so I was really getting depressed. I couldn't figure out what was wrong w/ my playing.

Then when we arrived here I thought I'd give those lines a try again using the POD. That was the biggest ego boost I had in a long time. lol I wasn't all that happy w/ the actual sound of the old POD, but my playing didn't fall apart - it stood up right there. Notwithstanding the sound, the performance were, at last, acceptable. Whereas, even w/ POD Farm, which should "sound" pretty similar to the POD, it never really worked. Even w/ a virtual compressor in the signal chain.

Next step was to take advantage of the fact that we were back in NY and to finally grab a compressor. It's set up so that it doesn't boost the signal at all. 

Unlike Danny, my signal goes to the preamp first (M-Audio DMP3, which is a cool no frills and absolutely clean preamp) then to the compressor then to my audio interface. 

I'm using the compressor fairly moderately, w/ a ratio of 1.5:1 max - it usually doesn't go beyond 3db of compression max on the very loudest parts. I tried a few different setting but ended up just sticking w/ OverEasy Mode and Auto (DBX). So what goes into the amp sim isn't any louder - but it is shaped more like an amped guitar sound than a clean unprocessed signal. And the amp sims seem to be happier when you feed them something like that. Otherwise, imho, they always sound like a dry guitar track w/ distortion on top - they can't add what's not there. The signal is lifeless, the amp sim gives you back a distorted lifeless signal. Frequency-wise, everything is there, but it's the dynamics that lack...

I then proceeded to give a spin to all my software amp sim - and it was like a revelation. It cleared up a whole lot of uncertainties I had in regards to which works for what. 

Now, I'm guessing that it could sound even better w/ an Avalon preamp and a fancy expensive compressor and some Apogee converters. But TBH, I'm already quite happy w/ the sound I get out of my humble set up. It's, imho, totally acceptable. The big difference is that we prime the signal before it reaches the converters - as long as it's not noisy or obviously degrading your sound, it's all good.

Starise
What I understand you to be saying is that outboard analog compression is superior to the digital compression and maybe even the compression built into dedicated digital guitar boxes.

 
Well I wouldn't say "superior" but I'd say they are a bit more adequate for what *I* was trying to do with this. That said, in the example I provided, a digital compressor was used within the rack unit I was using. The key is how it processed the signal before it hit the amp sim. The best example is when I play the legato riff with no compression and then WITH compression. You can hear how the notes are smoother and also ring out better while maintaining sustain better than without the compressor.

Starise
Without getting into too much technical and too far over my head I'm just trying to understand why one type of compression works and the other type doesn't seem to work as well. If they are both compressors they should do the same things or very similar. Or no?

Any type of compressor will work...but it MUST be inserted into the chain BEFORE it hits the amp sim and must be done in real time and used destructively. I'm at my studio now and I'm going to try a few things using my UAD plugs just to see if they add any difference. This morning as I was working on that mp3 example though, I tested the Sonitus compressor, Sonar X1 4k bus comp, the pc 76 and the pc 2A and all 4 failed to give me the results I was looking for.

I tried them with my input ehco "on" hoping they would enhance the signal. They did enhance, but it was not the same as a compressor or some sort of stomp box working the actual signal BEFORE it hits the amp sim.

I remember having a discussion with a few of the Bakers asking them if it they could make it possible for us to process VST plugs destructively so we could use them like hardware gear. I was pretty much told that there's no reason to do that because you can process the exact same way AFTER you've recorded. The two Bakers that responded to me are 2 guys I highly respect...however, I still can't agree with them because when we process with hardware or any other type of signal manipulation device, it is literally doing something to the signal coming in.

This is why people use hardware gear. It colors, boosts, alters, and does "something" BEFORE it prints to disc that we cannot get AFTER it's been printed to disc. Even if someone showed me scientific proof that post processing is the same, I still cannot buy into it. That's not because I'm stubborn or set in my ways...it's because *I* hear a difference in a signal that is manipulated at the line source when processed before disc that is not the same after disc print. Though it all may be true on paper and in theory...I don't hear it that way at all and most importantly, the "feel" thing we get out of these devices are totally gone.

If I record into an LA2A hardware piece and print it to disc, that signal is altered and effects how I play...what my touch is...the feeling is totally different. Now try it with a software 2A and you'll see it simply is not the same. Something happens when that signal is conditioned/process pre-print that makes an incredible difference to "me". Even if you use some sort of digitial processor pre-print, it is still going to do something to the signal going in that allows it to react differently, understand what I mean now? It's all about the feel, color and the way things react. I'm not getting that same thing recording with ITB effects in the "use them live in real time" environment. Even though it's supposed to be the same....it sure doesn't sound it to me.

Rain
Unlike Danny, my signal goes to the preamp first (M-Audio DMP3, which is a cool no frills and absolutely clean preamp) then to the compressor then to my audio interface.

Actually mine goes to a preamp too, Rain. I send to either a Mackie 32x8 or the Tascam DM 4800. When using them, I don't ever drive the pre's in either board...I just get things to where I average -6dB and don't use any eq or anything. I have two ways I do things...both being about the same.

The first way is, on my guitar tube pre (Digitech 2101) I plug my guitar in and it has 2 XLR outs that go into my console. When the 2101 is in bypass mode, nothing is active and it is just a basic DI box which is what you heard in my example. In the Mackie at my house, I have a Behringer Multi-Com compressor (4 comps in one rack box) and 2 DBX compressors. I usually use one or the other for amp sim type stuff, but wanted to try this comp that was in this little rack piece which worked just as well.

The other way I do this is to use a real DI box and then have compressors at my disposal via patch bay or the Behringer/DBX which are wired to the inserts of 6 channels in my board. I don't notice any difference between the 2101 DI and the DI boxes I use.

Totally agree with your last sentence in your post as that's how I look at it and treat things myself. :)

-Danny

Some great tips in this thread, I always high pass everything except bass. Sometimes even drums and kick.

I remembered you mentioning the 2101 in a similar thread last year - just didn't remember exactly how you use it. I figured there must be some kind of DI device in the chain. Thanks for the clarification. :)

Danny Danzi


Any type of compressor will work...but it MUST be inserted into the chain BEFORE it hits the amp sim and must be done in real time and used destructively. I'm at my studio now and I'm going to try a few things using my UAD plugs just to see if they add any difference. This morning as I was working on that mp3 example though, I tested the Sonitus compressor, Sonar X1 4k bus comp, the pc 76 and the pc 2A and all 4 failed to give me the results I was looking for.

Exactly what I did last summer - it kinda gave me a hint that I was probably looking in the right direction but no plug-in really worked. We don't have UAD, but I've tried pretty much all the others I have. I'll be curious to read how your experimentations turned out. If it works, it might help me sell the idea of adding a UAD to our set-up to my wife. ;)

I have amplitube and I tend to agree with the OP. I had to make a hard cut at about 200 on my distortion tracks. On clean, I found amplitube to sound too solid state and stale, so I miked my supersonic for those parts.  Great amp. Software has a certain fake sound that I can pick up by ear...   But I still use it for some parts and practice especially.

Really? what amps are you using for Distortion? I usually high pass til around 100ish depending on the mix and the tone.

 Thanks Danny and Rain for your detailed descriptions here. Maybe the reason that I haven't noticed an extreme difference is because I am using a fireastudio tube interface. If you are not familiar with it, it has a limiter and a tube front end. The adjustable limiter must be pushing the signal pretty well. I am  using a Variax and the entire concept of that guitar is different than the input of the typical guitar. It tends to run a little hotter and cleaner than a non active pickup would. One isn't necessarily better than the other just a different animal.The output seems to be closer to what an active pickup would be.

 Thanks for posting your example Danny.

 This is what I like about this forum. People like Danny post examples to show you what is actually happening.

 I am kind of on the fence regarding amp sims. I have  computer sims,outboards boxes and so on and I think a sim can be made to sound just as good as a real amp if set up correctly,but I haven't been half as far around the block as some others who have used the other stuff either.. If adding a little compression improves it great! And Danny is using a fairly inexpensive compressor.You might even be able to get away with the compressor built into some of the mixers like Yamaha. Either way it won't cost a lot to get one.