Chappel, I have never tied those setting with Auto Snap either.  I actually have not really gotten to know AS that well and have only used it for real minor fixes.
 
Goove is, however, maybe the most important aspect of a pro sounding recording... and band... IMHO.  You can tell when a band has finally gelled and falls into that sync, as well as when a recording take has that sync, or groove. 

Earlier in life, I always had a bad habbit of rushing things and my rhythm playing was always slightly ahead of the drums.  A pro drummer friend of mine pointed this out to me.  He basically said, especially in recordings, playing ahead of the drummer made it sound like the drummer either could not play in time, or could not keep up.  He taught me to play rhythm that was just slightly behind the drum beat.  It's a feel thing.
 
I have Bobby O's mixing book and the last half of the book has chapters which are interviews with quite a few big name Engineers.  A pattern that I picked up on while reading these interviews was that many of them were very specific about listening for a groove and playing to that groove while mixing, especially with compression.  They talked about finding that sweet spot with the compressor to kind of get it pumping with the groove of the song.  I still have not mastered compression well enough to do that, myself.

" There is Groove Quantize. I've never used it but it is supposed to make subtle shifts in timing to create certain "grooves". " I think there was a feature to it where you could take your own real time recorded midi timing and overlay that timing on to another track. So, you could create your own groove timing and apply it to a static quantized part.

Extracting groove templates from parts that groove well and applying them to other parts can work if done well and carefully.

With compressors it is the Release parameter that needs to be set in the sweet spot with the groove of the tune. It is not always obvious at first and takes some practice hearing how a compressor in fact releases. You can always start by doing some maths and calculating for example the time between beats and then maybe starting there or using multiples of that.

Delays are another thing that can also effect the groove. It is good of course to set delays in relation to rhythm subdivisions but it can also be interesting setting those times a little away from those sub divisions as well. Your ears will tell you when things are getting out of hand and hurting the groove.

I also agree about bringing up the parts that are responsible for the groove when mixing and make that a starting point rather than always starting with you always start with. 

I try to get a groove going on my drums then things may, or may not, fall into place....kinda sorta maybe-ish...

trimph1


I try to get a groove going on my drums then things may, or may not, fall into place....kinda sorta maybe-ish...

As far as Midi goes, the method jamesyoyo mentioned is a good place to start. I like to use the Select by Filter feature to select all the snare notes on beats 2 and 4 (first 2, and then 4) and slide them back a few ticks. That creates a nice sag in the beat that, I think, makes the drum track sound less mechanical and more lifelike. I sometimes move the snare and tom fills around manually in the PRV but to move a lot of notes at one time it's hard to beat that Select by Filter.

Chappel

trimph1


I try to get a groove going on my drums then things may, or may not, fall into place....kinda sorta maybe-ish...

As far as Midi goes, the method jamesyoyo mentioned is a good place to start. I like to use the Select by Filter feature to select all the snare notes on beats 2 and 4 (first 2, and then 4) and slide them back a few ticks. That creates a nice sag in the beat that, I think, makes the drum track sound less mechanical and more lifelike. I sometimes move the snare and tom fills around manually in the PRV but to move a lot of notes at one time it's hard to beat that Select by Filter.

When I edit MIDI patterns, I move EVERYTHING manually, one hit at a time. To me "more human" is three ticks off once and maybe five off another and then two off and even some right on. Let's be real, unless you talking the hot studio drummer of the day, most would play that way, IMHO.

It is true that visually in a proper groove, the midi notes will not hit bang on the metric time of the host, however, I don't think it is easy as just selecting a note here move 5 ticks here, 3 ticks here etc sure it will feel more human but I believe it will not give you the true groove of the song, the groove is a natural swell (happens in waves almost) relative to the strict time meter that is created by the musician (s). 
 
As bapu said the next best thing to this is to painstakingly manually move the notes to how you feel the groove is supposed to go (which is still coming from the natural live human interpretation of what the song needs).  Sure the grooves in Superior drummer have natural grooves that feel authentic, however they can never be the real deal since for an example a live drummer will maybe accent a certain lyricial hook, speed up a fraction at the start of a chorus before slightly pulling back at the time meter (suited to the song)...although having said that, checking midi grooves the other day on SD, I found the notes did actually hit on the timeline! maybe its was the accurately varying velocities that help with the groove in this program.


Recorded bands like, Fleetwood mac, Queen and Prince all have better grooves than generic pop beats right?? Just listening to RadioGaGa this morning, so simple and groovy, mmmm!

Have I just been talking a lot of trollip!ha

Cian

To me, the groove is often in the interplay of all of the rhythmic elements of the song, not just the drums.  You don't hear it as much in a lot of the droning music played currently.  Back when music was more funky and riff based, the groove would jump out and grab you. 

In my opinion, the groove (regardless of genre) is dependent on a few different elements including composition, arrangement, performance, and production.  Of these, the ones that have the most impact on the groove are the first three.  It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a Producer to artificially insert a groove into a song after the tracks have been recorded.  Sure, you can humanize MIDI tracks.  You can use EQ, compression, or delays in creative ways to add some punch and polish.  If the spark isn't there, however, then it's just not happening. 

I think that we try too often to fix the song with the wrong tools.  In many cases, the problem may be with the material, not the performance or the production.  As a solo artist/producer/engineer, it can be very difficult to have the perspective to evaluate our own material.  In the old days, we took our material to the clubs, bars, school gyms, church basements, etc. and tried it out on an audience before we ever thought about recording.  Now, some of us go straight from writing to recording without the interim step of subjecting an audience to a test performance.  Critical ears become that much more essential in that case.

bapu

Chappel

trimph1


I try to get a groove going on my drums then things may, or may not, fall into place....kinda sorta maybe-ish...

As far as Midi goes, the method jamesyoyo mentioned is a good place to start. I like to use the Select by Filter feature to select all the snare notes on beats 2 and 4 (first 2, and then 4) and slide them back a few ticks. That creates a nice sag in the beat that, I think, makes the drum track sound less mechanical and more lifelike. I sometimes move the snare and tom fills around manually in the PRV but to move a lot of notes at one time it's hard to beat that Select by Filter.

When I edit MIDI patterns, I move EVERYTHING manually, one hit at a time. To me "more human" is three ticks off once and maybe five off another and then two off and even some right on. Let's be real, unless you talking the hot studio drummer of the day, most would play that way, IMHO.

Ed, don't get mad at me for chiming in here, but you've told me something important in this message that explains a lot. In most of your drum passages, to me, there are things that are always out timing wise and there is always something loose within your drums. I think your explanation above clears up why now. More human does not mean ticks off bro...this explains some of your drum issues.
 
There are two types of drum grooves. The groove that is created by the drum instruments that are used and then the drummers natural ability to drag or "feel groove" within his/her playing. This is something that may not be exact to a metronome, but it is STILL in time. Little drags here and there are not human error...they are what makes a groove a groove. But you have to be careful when editing for this because it's not something you just edit...you have to feel the groove or actually be a drummer or think like a drummer to get it right.
 
I have put together two examples for you to further illustrate my point for you. In the first example, the velocities are all set to 127. Though it sounds a bit robotic, the groove remains no matter what. The kick makes it groove...the snare gives it the accent, the hats make you dance. It matters not whether or not this particular sequence is quantized...it grooves because of how the instruments make it groove. Making things late or early for the sake of, will literally mess this particular groove up.
 
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DrumGroove127.mp3
 
In this next one, I've used the vari-velocity CAL in Sonar setting it for 90 min, 127 max. Just from the velocity change alone, this clip sounds more human using the same exact feel, beat and kit pieces. Both of these were quantized to 16ths. The first one as I said is robotic, but the groove remains. The second one...the same thing, but with varied velocities, it takes on a horse of a slightly different color. If I would have adjusted these velocities manually, then it would have been even more realistic. But just from the CAL file it has improved the human feel on this in my opinion.
 
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DrumGrooveVaried.mp3
 
Granted, the last one is not a major difference, but because of the notes not all being at 127, it gives it more of a human sound.
 
I hope you don't feel I'm picking on you or anything....honest I'm not, I'm seriously trying to help. Try to never adjust things "for the sake of" gaining a real human feel. It's not how a real drummer works or thinks. It's literally a feel thing that is associated with rhythm, not just a "pushed back note" type of feel. There is a Humanize CAL also that can sometimes help with this as well as groove quantizing options you can use.
 
Stuff like this can really make a huge difference when you are editing programmed drums or even when you are adjusting something that may have come in to you via E-kit/V Drums. So just keep some of this in mind for your next project. This will stop some of the weirdness I seem to always hear in your drum timing. You don't have to quantize to the extreme and make things sound stale or lifeless, but you should always keep that proper sense of timing in my opinion or it can sometimes sound like your drummer may be falling down a step or 2 due to going a bit extreme with drags or when you try to simulate real drummer feel.
 
Even though I'm heavily quantized in these two examples, that groove is still there. This is what needs to be maintained in my opinion at all times. If I wasn't a drummer I'd probably not understand this as it's sometimes really tough for someone that ISN'T a drummer to just think like a drummer. Kinda like how most guitar players play bass like a guitar instead of a bassist...same thing here but it's even more of a challenge because even if you have incredible timing as a musician on whatever instrument you play, there's a certain groove thing a drummer can do that is just hard to program or simulate unless you are one. Hope this helps a bit and doesn't upset you. Much love and respect. :)
 
-Danny

you find groove....

by playing with lots of different people, over a long period of time.



or


you are simply born with it.


i have found over 36 years of playing with folks, that it's pretty much either/or.