IMHO, the terms groove and pocket characterize a human interaction and, that is the context in which I use these terms.  Also, and again IMHO, groove and pocket are NOT defined simply by the drummer but by the rhythm section (and I point this out because Owsinski spends a bit of time focusing on and being critical of drum issues in recordings he has worked on in relationship to groove).  From my point of view and in the context of the music I listen to and record, the groove and pocket are defined by the interaction between the drums, bass and rhythm guitar.  Also, it’s not simply the syncopation, the abundance of notes or conversely the sparseness of notes, it’s is how the different rhythm instruments are arranged and how they come together … both AC/DC and Allman Brother tunes groove and have deep pockets but, at least under the rock and roll umbrella, they are at fairly opposite ends when it comes to syncopation and density of notes.

In terms of live playing and interacting with musicians, if I am playing a section in a song with two rhythm guitars each playing a specifically arranged (and complimentary) pattern and the bass player is also playing a specific rhythmic “riff” … then I know from experience that to make that song cook or groove I will probably need to play sparsely and really define the pocket and, make sure the guys can find 1 and feel 2 and 4.  On the other hand, if I am playing with one guitar and a bass player and the guitarist is soloing, if I am confident in the bass player, I may fill extensively behind the solo and leave the pocket job to the bass player (think about the guitar solo section in the Live at Leeds version of Young Man Blues).

There has always been talk in drummer’s circles about playing ahead of the beat or behind the beat … or, in “groove / pocket” speak … where does the backbeat sit in the pocket?  Alternatively using a “wave in the ocean” analogy, if the beat is a big wave then, then for example, the snare could sit right on top of the wave, ride slightly in front of it or ride slightly behind it.  You will hear blues guys talk about sitting back (or laying back) in the pocket meaning … they are riding the backside of that wave.  In my personal experience, I worked for many years with two guitarists (brothers) that were both exceptional rhythm players.  Going back and listening to live tapes of nights where I felt we were really tight … the guys had an uncanny (and most likely unintentional) ability to lock into the groove by playing behind my beat.  Everything on tape sounded like it was on the verge of rushing but the tempos were solid and the songs were charged with energy as they should be in a live situation and it gave the vibe that the drums were seriously driving the band.  Years ago, I remember reading an article in Modern Drummer magazine that really stuck in my head about this very topic.  The author of the article, who was a high profile gigging drummer / hired gun, described an experience he had while trying to come to grips with this concept by attempting to sit back in the pocket on a slow blues during a live gig.  He went on to say that the band kept trying to follow him resulting in a performance of the song that pushed and pulled.  He also went on to say that he ended up getting a lot of grief from the rest of the band because of it.  I’m not even sure if I’m trying to make a point here other than the idea of manipulating the pocket is not just simply shifting one thing around but ... it’s a vibe you get from a well-oiled rhythm section and I guess questions: who is riding the front of the wave?, who is riding its backside?, and who is sitting on top of the wave? become a matter of perspective.

Cool discussion.
I particularly liked this:
Quantumeffect
" it’s a vibe you get from a well-oiled rhythm section and I guess questions: who is riding the front of the wave?, who is riding its backside?, and who is sitting on top of the wave? become a matter of perspective."
While I realize many of you aren't fans of the Grateful Dead, they were masters of the groove.
Check this out, probably my favorite "groove" ever:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEniyvOtETc

Certain elements ahead, some behind, and some on the money.
It's not math. It's interaction. It's the subtleties.
It's the difference between technically correct, but mundane, and something that picks you up and carries you with it.

batsbrew


you find groove....

by playing with lots of different people, over a long period of time.



or


you are simply born with it.


i have found over 36 years of playing with folks, that it's pretty much either/or.

+1 to this.

You don't 'find' the groove.   You ARE the groove, how you percieve it is how you'll portray it whether you choose to play it or program it, that is an inescapable reality.

That said good timing over sloppy timing will win every day, what will make a big difference though is how you express that timing with dynamics and accents.  Another factor is a slight lazy swing on an otherwise straight feel or slightly straightening up a shuffle (i.e pushing and/or pulling) are human tendencies worth exploring more than timing 'errors'.  Also timing relationships between individual elements are important too as JamesYoYo has mentioned, accelarando's and ritardando's are useful as well.

Bad timing however is just bad timing.  If you want that, hire a good drummer and get him well drunk or just use a sloppy drummer.

The good news though is if you ain't feeling that a piece of music you've created on the groove front then there is something already in you prompting you to make a change. Hopefully by playing around with the stuff I've mentioned will get you closer to that thing you are thinking is what your track is currently lacking.

A good example here for me is our Janet, she's sent me a couple of midi rhythm tracks over the years after getting some crits in the song forum about a drum track and asked for me to look at them and make any necessary adjustments or 'corrections', everytime she's done that I've just sent the midi back untouched.  She manages to work in her own feel perfectly well and all I'd do by changing it is impose my own feel which just wouldn't work on her music.  She to me is a great exponent in expressing her own groove in her own music, she's developed a definite style of doing things that for me just works and is spot on for what she does.  You can't improve on that, it truly is her.  To me it would be like 'correcting' somebody's poem by choosing different words.

Woo! I think I'm gonna dance now.

batsbrew


you find groove....

by playing with lots of different people, over a long period of time.



or


you are simply born with it.


i have found over 36 years of playing with folks, that it's pretty much either/or.

I think that in either case it's a matter of being born with the potential to "feel" a groove. Some get with it sooner than others. Some may never feel it no matter how long they play. And, of course, playing with musicians that have a great sense of rhythm will have a more beneficial effect than playing with people who have a poor sense of musical time. For a lot of us who work primarily with MIDI, we have to try and break down the human aspect into math. As has already been mentioned, dynamics are an important aspect of a groove. I like to hi-lite certain beats with different accents. Fills are what I use to create the kind of rhythm that I want. I like to drop in a kick drum either 1/16th in front of or after a snare hit occasionally. I also love 1/16th note triplets for snare fills. Never the same velocity, but using different volumes. I hear real drummers doing this sort of thing a lot and I've tried to mimic that kind of dynamic syncopation. Below is an image of a work in progress using the TTS-1 showing how I like to start putting a drum track together. The drums are usually the last thing I do in a project when I can use them to accent other parts of the song.

Some great stuff in there. Thanks for the replies everyone.

I've been so involved in the technical side of things these days I've forgotten about things such as leading slightly ahead of the beat or falling slightly behind to create a certain feel.

I wonder how effective it is to try and simulate this feel by simply nudging tracks? Do you find it's a complete waste of time or can it change the feel of a part if it wasn't appropriately recorded in the first place?

^ Well, nudging does make things less rigid. Listen to dance tunes that have a certain motif that you can't count until the beat comes in.

Jazz/Latin is very popular for having off-beat rhythms and I don't mean just the drums.

Sambas usually have syncopated bass lines (by anticipation) - notes don't line up directly on the beat. Meanwhile, the harmony slides of the pulse/beat as well.

To the ear, it doesn't sound like it because everybody is playing together when it's all in context.

When I write harmony using strings, the harmonic rhythm is most often a minim (half-note, two beats); yet, they are often a quaver (eighth) earlier than the pulse. In context, one may not be able to tell.

as far as making adjustments, that depends on how rigid you want it - at the same time, you don't want a take (or ten) where the player is off every time or gets worse with each take.

Then, if it's so be played by someone else, it's obvious one may not want the performers to get really crazy with it. Not as rigid as the traditional orchestra, but they mess up sometimes, too.

Always allow for imperfections, I guess is what I'm saying. In this case, it's not a feel thing as much as it is that imperfections are inevitable.

mattplaysguitar


I wonder how effective it is to try and simulate this feel by simply nudging tracks? Do you find it's a complete waste of time or can it change the feel of a part if it wasn't appropriately recorded in the first place?

In my experience, not effective at all. Like I mentioned in my post to Ed....groove quantize would be your best bet if you had to simulate it...or if you are a drummer, manually editing midi notes can help.
 
You play drums for real though, right? I know you have a V Drums kit. Are you just a basic "keep time 4/4" type drummer? There's nothing wrong with that if that's the case...but to me, as I've said before...most of the groove comes from the drums. This is where I have to disagree with some of the posts that were offered here. Not that I think they are wrong, I just think they are mentioning something different. Yes other instruments can improve the groove or enhance it, but to me, a groove "dances". Try dancing to a staggering bass line or a guitar that's "schucking" off timing stuff where those instruments are embellishing the groove. When people dance, they are dancing to a prominent groove created by the drums unless the other instruments are creating a "beat groove". To me, these are two different things.
 
Take the bass line for "Brick House" by the Coomodores as an example. There's my definition of a groove. It staggers, but always hits on the beat to keep you moving. The horns and the guitars in that tune enhance the groove with accents...the drums and bass ARE the groove. If you danced to the horn parts in that song, you'd be doing "The Robot" which is still cool...but, well, it was more of a novelty thing really. :) Play that bass line to a metronome...it's perfect yet has a few little early's and drags in it...but it never loses time like you would if you just tried to simulate that by moving notes around. Some grooves are just ever so slightly ahead or behind...but not enough to where it sounds like someone fell down the steps. It is and always will be, a "feel thing" in my opinion. Then again, just like the word "feel" has different meanings to different people, "groove" to some people is not "groove" to others.
 
Ever hear the band Extreme? There's a band that knows how to lay down a nice groove oriented rock feel. Nuno Bettencourt is famous for stuff like that. Even there though, his guitar "dances" while the drums and bass create the actual groove. His licks are the "lead vocals" in the rhythms he comes up with for that stuff. But you'd have to be one heck of a dancer to dance to his guitar "grooves" in my opinion. :)
 
-Danny

The groove is right where you would expect to find it, in your hands. If you can't play it, it'll never sound much better than fake. It requires that everyone (the drummer most especially) be able to feel that pulse, and swing within the pulse, so that it moves and flows while retaining the overall tempo. If everyone can do that, then the music can take on a sort of breathing, flowing sense that we think of as groove, IMO.

It's all about push and pull within an otherwise steady tempo, so that it sounds like it's straining uphill and then falling downhill, but always getting back to the bottom of the hill at regularly spaced points in time. No grid is going to really get you that though.

...but to me, as I've said before...most of the groove comes from the drums.

 
Yep.
 

Ever hear the band Extreme?

 
Love their groove.
 
I think another good example of groove is the way the drums, bass and guitar all groove to a steady pulse in Get Back.  Especially noticable in the begining measures. 

Interesting you should bring up Ringo, as far as groove goes I reckon he could have been replaced by anyone.

On the other hand this guy knew and still knows how to groove, simplicity itself but ya can't keep still. Even his mis-hits seem to work because he's still nailed to the groove timing wise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsxnn6S-_NQ

You can hear who it is without any prior knowledge of what band he came from and get the reason why he contributed greatly to so many hit records and was completely irreplaceable.  Mind you that great Gretsch sound helps don't it?

Can ya tell who it is yet?  Sure you can.