2012/07/24 08:39:22
Danny Danzi
Dave, I got the answer to the "battling of the click". My biggest problem as a drummer is to hone in on that sound...cowbell, wood-block, whatever gets used, it just screws me up. Yet I can play nearly dead on with anything else that locks me in on keeping time.

My fix is to create a midi of a beat instead of trying so hard to listen for and worry about that traditional "click". That in itself bothers me to where I sort of feel stagnant. Enter a programmed midi into the picture and everything changes for me. Try it sometime. Create a midi using step sequencer or something, then pan it to the left so it's not up the middle and annoying and you can tell your drums from the midi drums.

You'll find that this method is really close to when you jammed along to albums and you just lock right in with it. I've never battled a click since doing things like this and it's made a world of difference for both me and my clients. That annoying little click by itself is the problem in my opinion. With the tools we have today, we can still "groove" while playing to a click...the key is to use more of a "beat" than a "click" in my opinion. Try it sometime if you haven't...you'll be surprise how easy you lock in and no longer battle that click or even pay attention to it.

That's the other thing...whoever is drumming to that annoying click sound, often times is so worried about keeping it in check it can make their playing stale. Hence why some guys will show up and say "no, I'd really prefer not to play to a click because it sort of stifles me". I can groove with the best of them on a drum kit and I too seem to fall apart while thinking too hard about that cowbell or wood block. But put in a beat of something similar to what I'm supposed to be playing, and I lock right in and don't even listen to it as I play. Just like jamming to my favorite Chicago or Dream Theater album. There were times when I was learning to play drums that I couldn't quite play what a drummer was playing. I could play to my ability and still jam along because he kept the time. Same principal when creating a midi drum beat as opposed to that stagnant click sound....uggh...I can't tell you how much I hate that and how that sound stays in my brain for like 4 hours after using it! Midi beats panned to the left or I'd rather take my chances and go without a click at all. :)

-Danny
2012/07/24 08:57:08
Jonbouy
Yes the actual sound can help when playing along and using a pre-made groove to jam with can help some.

TBH I never 'hear' the click after the count in, I probably sense it in some way but I'm never consciously 'aware' of it.  The only time I hear the click apart from that is when I hear the first beat after I've already realised I've fluffed the take anyway.

Western music dictates measures, bars and beats as strict time based divisions adhereing to a tempo even without a click.  'Con Rubato' hardly ever appears as a required interpretation/playing style on any score for popular music.

To me playing 'loose' and 'grooving' are two entirely different subjects.

Much of the subject on this particular debate as well will be for those wanting to add-in some feel post-event and there are some good pointers already here on how to do that, so those producers can add a 'feel' to their stuff that might not already be there, when they are using methods to arrive at a groove and being able to actually play it out isn't an option for them.

Adhering to a click shouldn't and doesn't limit any ability to groove the only thing it does is keep the tempo strict.  The only reason not to use one is if you are using tempo changes to bring particular emphasis to certain elements of a song structure where being glued to a specific tempo might prevent that.  Tempo to my mind is a seperate element from 'the groove' which occurs within the structure of a measurable time-base whatever the tempo.

It's strange for me even to try and discuss it because normally I'd just do it.  I rarely if ever think about it or attempt to analyze it.
2012/07/24 14:14:07
droddey
In a band situation, everyone feels the pulse. I'm not sure that the drummer is necessarily the 'time keeper', not in a good band anyway. Everyone can feel that pulse that's implicit in the music (though in much popular/rock music it's not implicit at all it's bashed out very obviously.) If everyone in the band is good, they can all play around the pulse and not confuse anyone else. The phrasing of the song will have a certain swing to it that everyone should understanding and either flow with it, or perhaps purposefuly go against it if that's musically interesting. So, yeh, groove isn't anything to do with short term changes in tempo, it's pushing and pulling against a regular tempo.

I do though think that the use of a click almost completely in modern music is one of the big problems with it. Without the ability to naturally play faster in more emotional parts and slower in calmer parts, or to slow down slightly when you want to go "Buffalo Testicles" mode and so forth makes modern music a lot more boring. But of course everything is sacrificed to the ability to overdub almost everything and get maximum sound quality, and the ability to edit everything after the fact. Getting a real human sort of push and pull and natural tempo variation I think requires that at least the backing track be laid down as a band without a click.

If the argument against doing that it is that it will make it hard to use lots of cheating tools to perfect everything, then I'd say right there that argument has already gone off the rails and is not only putting the cart before the horse, it's shooting the horse and leave it dead by the side of the road.
2012/07/24 15:13:54
Jonbouy

If the argument against doing that it is that it will make it hard to use lots of cheating tools to perfect everything, then I'd say right there that argument has already gone off the rails and is not only putting the cart before the horse, it's shooting the horse and leave it dead by the side of the roa


That ain't the point I was making at least.

Where it needs to happen a band will lay down a live take anyway.  In many cases it isn't necessary and a click will be used where it isn't detrimental, in a lot of modern pop music click tracks work just fine, and have done for decades.

That's been the case since the metronome was invented, it's not a particularly new phenomenon.

It has been noticeable to me over the years that the majority of those that rail the loudest against strict tempo are those that can't manage it.  Those that do manage it on a daily basis don't seem to mind working either way.

Nailed sounds nailed usually because it is nailed.
2012/07/24 16:59:38
droddey
I wasn't talking about you specifically, but it's absolutely clear to me that far and away the most common reason for using a click track today is that it allows for so much cheating. A good band doesn't need a click track to maintain a steady tempo where it's desired. But, if you want to be able to comp like crazy, and gridify everything, apply quantized content, copy and past sections to create new sections, and you want to lay down the majority of the parts as overdubs, then it becomes very important to have it all strictly against a click.

I've got nothing against clicks in and of themselves, but clearly a good band can do a much better job without one, because they can allow breaks to stretch a little longer, they can play some parts a little faster to increase drama and so forth. Yeh, you can sit down and program all those tempo changes into the click, but that's not the same. It doesn't allow for a group of tight musicians to just let things happen on the fly.

At least that is case for bands who aren't basically doing what is so common in modern pop, which is completely unrealistic, unhuman music that's massaged into sterility after it's tracked, where having everything gridded is more important than anything else.
2012/07/24 18:41:35
Danny Danzi
JonbuoyIt has been noticeable to me over the years that the majority of those that rail the loudest against strict tempo are those that can't manage it. Those that do manage it on a daily basis don't seem to mind working either way.

 
That hits it on the head for me man and what I've noticed as well. The same when people complain about how flashy someone may be on their instrument. It's always the ones that can't do something that have the most to say about others that can.
 
As for these supposed "cheat tools" I sure welcome them as they can cut loads of time out of a project for me. When I do back up vocals, I may sing 15 or more sets of high/mid/low parts. To get to the point where I'm happy with those 15 sets of 3, it may take 2 hours due to experimenting with harmonies and singing them the way I need them to be. It sure is nice to copy and paste them into the next section where they repeat knowing that because I used a grid that they will drop right in. I already sang them 300 times anyway, so in my opinion, I've paid my dues. :)
 
-Danny
2012/07/24 20:02:48
trimph1
To me getting into a groove means something along the line of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhWArBhPWu0

I have been practicing my drumming using stuff like this...any other suggestions?
2012/07/24 21:34:02
droddey
I'd go for something more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi41K4zY8O4

The antithesis of modern gridded, grooveless music. Almost no one, even the drummer, is really that strictly on the beat. But the overall result is very funky and exciting and visceral.
2012/07/30 09:28:32
The Maillard Reaction

Here's a super groovy piece of 6:8 meter I stumbled on yesterday while shopping for my next preamp:

http://soundcloud.com/aurora-audio/gtq2-gt4-2-demo



from: http://auroraaudio.net/pr.../gtq2-about/gtq2-media

The musical movement sounds, to me, like wisps of mist rising over a swift moving stream.

I think it is a good example of how, after a musician learns to play steady time, they can further their expressiveness by grooving a bit. I also think it is good example of how music can be groovy regardless of whether someone is playing the drums.


best regards,
mike


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