At least were back on topic, well sort of.

The only thing I can add is, sometimes it gets confusing on the song forum.  The way I handle the song forum is if they ask for advice, I will give my advice and tell the composer what I would do in his or her situation. 

Hey I know I've put up some crap mixes and to some, some crap tracks but I'm in my own world and it's more about what I like, so it's not that I don't listen to people when they say a)or b) it's just I know where I am at.  Also there are a couple of aggressive types on the song forum (with me), including me but I don't take that aggressiveness onto the song forum.  I mean you are talking about peoples art for christs sake.  Some gentleness and tact is required.  But if I don't like a track, I will be as gentle as possible, funnily enough there is very little I don't like and this includes James YoYo. 

I have mentioned James because I gave him a kick the other day and the fact of the matter is I like most of the stuff he posts.

What we have to remember is this is such a subjective art and all art is, so what I think is great and what others may think is great can be two different things.

Finally there are a few of us who do have a clue about mixing and mastering and those of who do have a clue need to put it away and try and understand we all have our field of expertise.  Mine is about the art and perspective.  James and Danny are more technicaly minded and can express themselves better but we can all offer something to this great big cooking pot, called music as long as we all put our egos aside, yes and this means ME!!

Ben  

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

FastBikerBoy

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

I think you maybe a litte too self deprecating. Better than being so full of yourself as others seems to be. I just listened to your track. While not technically full of virtuosity, it has heart and soul. And that means a lot to me. I rather listen to that way more than 80's hair metal band music.
80's hair metal music makes me want to jam pencils in my ears. But that's just my opinion, and that's the point isn't it? My opinion is as valid as the next guy.

guitarmikeh

FastBikerBoy

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

I think you maybe a litte too self deprecating. I just listened to your track. While not technically full of virtuosity, it has heart and soul. And that means a lot to me. I rather listen to that way more than 80's hair metal band music.
80's hair metal music makes me want to jam pencils in my ears. But that's just my opinion, and that's the point isn't it? My opinion is as valid as the next guy.

Thanks Mike. I didn't mean I think I'm complete rubbish. I'd give up if I thought that, just I'm fully aware that there are a lot of people a lot better at it than I am. I aim to get there one day but whether I do is another matter of course, won't stop me trying though.

I think the point I was trying to make is that nobody knows it all or are good/have natural talent at everything. What I lack in technical engineering ability I make up elsewhere hopefully. As I said earlier that seems  to me to be the point of the forums, bring what I do know and takeaway what I don't. Of course some think they just bring because they already know it all anyway. Those that don't think they need to still learn never will unfortunately. Again that's true in just about everything in life.

Some are stuck permanently in their early teens. i.e. think they know everything but in reality know very little.

FastBikerBoy

guitarmikeh

FastBikerBoy

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

I think you maybe a litte too self deprecating. I just listened to your track. While not technically full of virtuosity, it has heart and soul. And that means a lot to me. I rather listen to that way more than 80's hair metal band music.
80's hair metal music makes me want to jam pencils in my ears. But that's just my opinion, and that's the point isn't it? My opinion is as valid as the next guy.

Thanks Mike. I didn't mean I think I'm complete rubbish. I'd give up if I thought that, just I'm fully aware that there are a lot of people a lot better at it than I am. I aim to get there one day but whether I do is another matter of course, won't stop me trying though.

I think the point I was trying to make is that nobody knows it all or are good/have natural talent at everything. What I lack in technical engineering ability I make up elsewhere hopefully. As I said earlier that seems  to me to be the point of the forums, bring what I do know and takeaway what I don't. Of course some think they just bring because they already know it all anyway. Those that don't think they need to still learn never will unfortunately. Again that's true in just about everything in life.

Some are stuck permanently in their early teens. i.e. think they know everything but in reality know very little.

Totally got that, brother! The point I'm trying to make was about the enjoyment of it all. Or the enjoyment of specific things whether it be technical prowess, the ability to teach,  the need for a pat on the back or just bang around. It's all good IMO. I do have a little trouble expressing myself well. enjoyment is the key factor I believe. If you enjoy it who needs validation from some supposed Internet guru? Unless that what you want (not anyone specifically). I can't write anymore it's 4:30 am here. I hope I made sence. I'm tired. 

Chappel

MakeShift

I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about.

I have much the same feelings FBB.  I consider myself more of a songwriter that is just trying to learn my way around the Engineering side of things.  I visit the forum daily, absorb all of the great information that you all discuss, then when time allows, go back and try to apply the things I am learning.  I try to never take offense to any crit that I am given, because I am really trying to learn this stuff. 

I do find it interesting that a lot of folks at song forums don't post unless they have something corrective to say about the Engineering side of things.  From a songwriters perspective, some times it is just nice to hear that some one likes the song, or what parts in particular they like or don't like.  I think it overall helps a songwriter to know what and what is not clicking with other people.

Same here. I used to post a lot in the songs forum to comment on what I liked in a song but after some of the resident experts here implied that was a worthless thing to do, and if people couldn't offer "real" feedback, then they should keep their comments to themselves. Boy, I sure felt self-conscious after that. And after reading some of the comments about people chiming in when they don't know what they're talking about, now I feel self conscious about offering any advice at all. I think I'll just go back to lurking and let these experts handle it. The forum seemed to be doing just fine before I started posting here. I guess all this arguing and infighting has worn me down. Time to take a break and concentrate my energy somewhere else.

Aww Chappel, don't feel like that brother. I don't think anyone meant it the way you may have taken it...or...I'd think it's safe to say the majority don't feel that way. I think it's nice to hear from everyone whether they are qualified or not. I mean...the thing to keep in mind there, it depends on what advice (if any) a person may be looking for. When I've shared my songs on the forum, I wasn't looking for advice...I was just sharing the song. That's not meant to say I don't welcome the advice I might receive, but when I post something, it's usually done enough to where I'm satisfied with it or I wouldn't post it at all.
 
For example, we can listen to a song "as a listener" and say whether we like it or not. Yet, from an engineer stand point, there may be other things that can be offered. I try my best to accept something for what it is, not what I feel it should be unless the song I'm commenting on came from someone that I know for sure want's to hear my take. At the end of the day, all the production and techniques aside, the common listener (imho) has a bit more pull than the dude that may be a seasoned pro when it comes to this stuff. We've heard incredibly produced music that wasn't always a good song, ya know?
 
Most of us couldn't pick our own hit song if our lives depended on it anyway. LOL! I have a song on one of my albums that really did well with airplay and royalties. I would have NEVER in a million years thought it would have done as well as it did. It was a song I liked, but not one that I would have EVER thought would get play at all. The songs I would have picked as songs that might do well weren't the ones that were requested live or for radio. LOL! So who better to pick stuff like that? Right...the common listener that may not know anything about production, techniques or the like. 
 
The common listener is the buyer and they'll tell you when something may not be to their liking without commenting on the production aspect. But since this is mostly a forum that deals with how we use Sonar and quite a few are interested in making things sound good from a production stand-point, you're definitely going to get the production comments as well.
 
The problem there is when someone may not be qualified to comment on stuff like that. When we are learning, we need the most accurate comments possible in my opinion or it can send someone on a wild goose chase and they could waste loads of time.
 
For example, I've been into construction for a long time and know a decent amount about it. However, I've always been a helper/grunt worker in that field and would never even try to tell someone what they should do while building their house....and I've helped to build 4 houses from the foundation to the finished product and have done loads of remodeling. It's something I know a little "about" but not something I'd ever offer advice on in a major situation.
 
But never stop commenting man....and never feel self-conscious when giving your opinion. As long as the delivery is good and no one gets offended by "voice for the sake of a voice" type comments (which you've never done) I wouldn't worry about it.
 
The other side of the coin is the extent in which people want to improve their production. I would say the majority that post around here DO want to know how to improve things. But even there, the initial delivery is what needs focus. When I comment on something, I always give the positives in a tune as well as the negatives. Some of the negatives may be subjective and I try to keep those out, but if something sounds blatantly wrong like a kick drum lacking low end or a bass guitar with too much boom to it....or frequency masking etc...I try to always comment on stuff like that because in my opinion, that's no longer subjective to my ears even though it may have been the intent of the writer.
 
At any rate, definitely don't take a break and please don't stop sharing your opinion. There are some people you can help, some you listen to and appreciate...others, you just move on if the song doesn't do anything for you. But don't ever feel self-conscious or not qualified bro. We need more good guys like you taking part. :)
 
-Danny

Of my 6000 or so posts, the vast majority of them have been in the song forum. The vast majority of those are simply "a listen and a nod" to the artist. On occasion, if there is something I hear that I can help correct, I may offer advice. But, to me, the purpose of the song forum is to get some exposure and some moral support. I offer a "well done" when many others may not. Nobody is actually qualified to make negative criticisms (especially me, though I have given a few, usually in response to somebody with a large ego that does not seem to match their skills). It is also a challenge to listen to genres of music I hate (like Christian or country), though I still try hard to be as positive as I can. However, I do not reply to those who post and walk away, or those who do not support others in the song forum. In those cases I will not even listen to their song when posted.

one paragraph. whew thank you. I get blurry eyed when some blathers on and on and on.
talking about the songs forums and the critiques of said songs.

what would be the proper technique or procedure for review and comment.

first thread then down. but that would place older thread on top and newer threads on bottom??

or

should you review and comment on older threads first then work your way to the top? leaving the newer thread topside. 

I always wondered. 

I don't know if there is any "right way", but I start at the bottom, and work my way up. This helps to keep the "current position" of the song on the page.

I just listen to the ones that catch my interest, for whatever reason. Can't be doing with analyzing it too much, it's just a place I enjoy visiting.