2009/01/09 19:55:13
montezuma

ORIGINAL: No How

ORIGINAL: montezuma

I can never get a bass track to work in anything because I have to use synth bass and I can never get the synth to tune up perfectly to my acoustic guitar, so it always sounds weird. Plus, I find making up bass parts really hard...they always seem to intrude on the song and clutter the hell out of it.


I know what you mean. Tune your guitar to the synth.

It's painfully easy (for me) to over play the bass. It's so damn tempting! anyhooo, just lay down a bass line and then listen to it from beginning to end and you'll hear what should come out and what should stay.
Start from there and just keep it torturously simple (wish i could!)....listen, tweek, play, listen, tweek....

It's my favorite instrument because it determines the whole harmonic direction (or lack of) of the song and it's where you can really shift the listeners expectations and take them into new territory without any dramatic change in melody.


Yeah, I think it's a smart thing to do to get your guitar tuned to the synth early on...even though 440hz natural e should be the same in the synth and on a properly tuned guitar independent of the synth. They just should be the same. But if you are off by a hair, it's a lost cause to start to try and adjust the sythn by a few cents or a few 'nths of a cent to try to get them spot on. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But anyway, yes, trying to keep a bass line painfully simple is even a challenge. It's a tough instrument to make up for your song for me.
2009/01/09 20:02:36
keneds
I know that clipping is bad, I just picked up in one of the forums a while back that when recording digitally you never want to exceed -12db. So I thought it wasn't a good thing to do. So...It's ok to make it as hot (exceeding the -12db mark) as long as you keep it out of the red and the track is well placed in the volume scheme. Interesting.....
Thanks for the advice. Ken
2009/01/09 20:07:21
CJaysMusic
I know that clipping is bad, I just picked up in one of the forums a while back that when recording digitally you never want to exceed -12db
.
When reading forums, you need consider the source. Don'T believe everything you read here and do not just believe me. Use common sense and look things up on the pc so that you can get another opinion or another take on things.
For me, a peak of-12db is too low for a recorded signal. I record as hot as possible, without clipping. This ensures that i get the most out of my sound

Cj
2009/01/09 21:52:19
Marah Mag
As I understand it, it's not that you're not supposed to not go above -12, it's that if you are recording at 24 bits, then the noise floor is so low that you can still get acceptable quality even if you're only peaking at -12.

But that doesn't mean that you should avoid using those 12 dbs.

What this means in practice is that you can be less concerned about setting a precise level and worrying that an extra hard guitar or drum hit is going to go over 0db by some small amount because you can just shift your entire recording range down and still get a good sound.

In other words, there's more margin for error in anticipating dynamic range. This makes it easier to just get on with it, and less need to play "chicken" with 0db. But there's no reason not to come as close as you can, as per CJ.

At least that's how I understand it.
2009/01/09 22:57:33
montezuma

ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

I know that clipping is bad, I just picked up in one of the forums a while back that when recording digitally you never want to exceed -12db
.
When reading forums, you need consider the source. Don'T believe everything you read here and do not just believe me. Use common sense and look things up on the pc so that you can get another opinion or another take on things.
For me, a peak of-12db is too low for a recorded signal. I record as hot as possible, without clipping. This ensures that i get the most out of my sound

Cj


Yeah but cj, from what I know and have heard about your music, you're not exactly the mellow acoustic strumming balladeer. You have and go for a loud and big sound. Well I guess you did say 'get the most out of my sound'...so fair enough.
2009/01/10 06:25:16
Microdomus
For guitars:

Record two stereo tracks(the same) for left, where one of those tracks get panned 100% to the left and volume reduced to -3.00(or more), while the other track stays in center with aprox 30% off original volume(-12.00). The same is done with the right guitar. For leads I used to keep it simple and play `em on the right guitar, but lateley I have started to record a extra lead line that I place center of the "soundpicture". So...three different guitars per project, but all in all...it depens on the track.

For bass:

One mono track placed in the middle with lots of compression. Ususally drop the volume down to -6.00, and it sounds damn good I must say! ;)
2009/01/10 09:42:06
keneds
What level setting determines the final mix sent to a cd burn, Would it be the master bus?
2009/01/10 13:11:33
GrottoRob
So long as all tracks and buses eventually point there, yes.

I usually bounce the whole mix down to a new stereo track and set this track's output directly to my soundcard output (to bypass any FX in the master bus). This lets me check the mixdown before exporting without re-applying FX.

Rob
2009/01/11 20:02:12
wst3
ORIGINAL: Marah Mag
As I understand it, it's not that you're not supposed to not go above -12, it's that if you are recording at 24 bits, then the noise floor is so low that you can still get acceptable quality even if you're only peaking at -12.

But that doesn't mean that you should avoid using those 12 dbs.

What this means in practice is that you can be less concerned about setting a precise level and worrying that an extra hard guitar or drum hit is going to go over 0db by some small amount because you can just shift your entire recording range down and still get a good sound.

In other words, there's more margin for error in anticipating dynamic range. This makes it easier to just get on with it, and less need to play "chicken" with 0db. But there's no reason not to come as close as you can, as per CJ.

At least that's how I understand it.

That's pretty close to my view of the world... we may both be wrong<G>... but there is one little bit in there I'd like to highlight.

Just because you are recording with 24 bits of resolution does not mean you have oodles of dynamic range to play with. First, almost every vendor of low to mid-range converters uses the converter chip S/N ratio specification, not the device specification. Now to be fair, that's partly to make their product look good, partly because everyone else does it, and partly because there is no really well defined specification for S/N ratio as it crosses over from A into D (or vica-versa!)

The other thing to consider is that nothing out there has a 144 dB S/N ratio, so even if your converter were capable of perfect operation (and it isn't), your preamplifiers, monitor amplifier, etc aren't anywhere near that good.

As an experiment I built a line level buffer, no gain, really a pretty pointless device, just to see how quiet I could make it. I was pretty surprised - the test set I was using at the time, an AP Portable One Plus, was struggling to measure the noise floor with the input terminated. So I don't really know what I ended up with, but it was scary quiet. To get there I took great care with the circuit layout, I used all metal resistors (both of them??), and no capacitors. I also overbuilt the power supply such that noise and ripple were unmeasurable.

It didn't really prove anything except that it was possible to build a circuit that was really quiet. So I added 70 dB of gain, no adjustment, just enough gain to bring a ribbon microphone up to line level, and I added a passive ladder attenuator on the output. All of the sudden I had no problem measuring S/N ratio<G>!

What's all this have to do with numbers of bits? Just that you can't assume that all your bits are pristine, there is a least significant bit, and it's probably much higher than you'd like. So you do want to keep your levels reasonable.

At the same time you don't want to run too hot because there are all sorts of ways that a signal can distort, and as a rule most listeners are more aware of distortion than they are of noise, at least according to studies I've read. The really odd part is that they are less bothered by certain types of distortion than others, or noise. If the distortion product is harmonically related to the signal it often sounds pleasing. Go figure.

There is no agreement on a reference level for digital audio recording or processing. Some folks work as low as -18dBFS, others as high as -6dBFS, and some fall in the middle.

Me? I love tranisients, and I figure they are probably going to get mucked up somewhere along the way anyway, but I like to give them a fighting chance, so I use -18dBFS or maybe -16dBFS.

YMMV. and really, if you are busy counting bits you probably aren't paying enough attention to your mix<G>!
2009/01/11 21:30:38
esmail1
edited
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