We got lucky with mic choice Danny - the first half decent one we bought was an AT4033 (which was retailing for £600 [$1000] at the time) but it fitted my wife's voice like a glove! We've since acquired a small collection of less than boutique quality mics but theAT is still the goto choice when I'm tracking Lyn.

Needless to say, nothing can make me sound good!

The word lush for me implies something else and it has nothing to do with recording technique either. It is about the harmonies themselves. eg What notes are you talking about. Time for everyone to get  a serious lesson in vocal harmonies once again with the ever amazing band Steely Dan. 

LISTEN to the harmonies in their songs. No, sorry the old major third and fifth here will not cut the mustard. We are talking about building serious chords now eg Minor 11th or suspended notes etc. Major 7th #11 etc..Of course the music requires it to a certain extent but even with simpler music than Steely Dan, very lush harmonies and chords can be built. That is what makes a good harmony.

But it does take understanding of music theory to get this happening properly. You need to always be aware of the chord progression that is running underneath and move those harmony notes around to suit. The inner lines need to move smoothly as well.

Harmonies can NOT be made up on the spot. Sorry this is crap. Yes some singers can do it but all they do really is come up with is simplistic intervals and none of the serious stuff that can really create a lush harmony. One needs to sit down and work all these out first and then teach the individual lines to the singers that way. 

I think you're right, Jeff. To make a seriously good, moving and interesting harmony, it's going to take time to sit down and write it out. I'm sure you can get lucky, but we want consistency!

I'm only at the very start of my harmony journey, but from my current readings and listenings, I have come to this interpretation - Parallel harmonies can make a vocal sound nice, but true, well written harmonies create emotion. Parallel can really only fill things out and make a vocal sound bigger, but it can't add that incredibly strong emotive feel you get with some complex chordal changes in very great harmonies. Would you agree with this assessment?

As for making a vocal bigger, I remember reading that there is a perception that octaves and 5ths tend to sound very thin, due to similar harmonic content (yes?) However parallel 3rds tend to work much better and sound much bigger. As well as 4ths and 6ths I think. What say you on this idea?

Another simplistic technique I remember reading was to start with main melody, 3rd, 4th and 6th and then make up your second harmony by choosing a combination of the 3rd, 4th and 6th and alternating between the three to create something new and variable. Literally going on what sounds 'right'. I guess this may be a simple approach for the person with limited music theory ability (me!)

IMO I think one of my strongpoints are creating those lush harmonies your are talking about (not big headed, I suck in a lot of otherways!ha);

I basically do a **** load of vocal takes (all separate, the different blends creates that wall of sound), and I mean doing a lower and higher octave takes of the original melody, lower and higher of one harmony and of a also of a second, I could end up with  a minimum of 6. Obviously the harmony chosen has to be good.

And then, but not as important, a good compressor, some reverb and a touch of high end boost.

My 2 cents,

Cian

Thanks for all the great advice!  (Sorry it took me awhile to respond back.)  I will give these methods a try on my next project.  Also, one technique I have been using to get rid of excessive out-of-sync "s's" and "t's" at the end of words during vocal harmonies, is precise use of V-Vocal dynamics to remove or reduce them selectively.  I'm sure one can adjust timing to achieve the same result or use both VV timing and dynamics.

Greg

whack


IMO I think one of my strongpoints are creating those lush harmonies your are talking about (not big headed, I suck in a lot of otherways!ha);

I basically do a **** load of vocal takes (all separate, the different blends creates that wall of sound), and I mean doing a lower and higher octave takes of the original melody, lower and higher of one harmony and of a also of a second, I could end up with  a minimum of 6. Obviously the harmony chosen has to be good.

And then, but not as important, a good compressor, some reverb and a touch of high end boost.

My 2 cents,

Cian

+1 ... Cian
 
And a good Pre with good tubes helps for some vocs.
 
Lush will always be pioneered ... via a lot of singing and experiments:
 
So, per Cian, (for me) multitakes are key. 
 
So are dissonant counterpoint melodies ... if they feel right.
 
I deal with humble choirs (of all ages) all the time ... and hope to learn more and more to manifest lush-harmonies ... publicly (as a song leader) and in the studio (recording songs)
 
Singing intimately with the mic oft --> lush
 
Noise-removal VSTs oft helps (get rid of 'some' of the white/pink noise)
 
Melodyne is a close friend: Sweet non-robotic lush is quite do-able.
 
Multi-octaves, a 5th above (iirc), whispers, soul-vocs, mic technique ... hearty singing, sincere singing, etc. sometimes succeeds.
 
If my lush goal is to be like "Oooh Oooh Child" (Spinners irrc) I imitate the artist
 
But most oft, lush-singing comes from a lush heart ... which I'm only blessed with 'part-time' -- haahhaha!

I remember reading once (still not personally tried it) that when writing counter melodies or harmonies, you should usually avoid ever singing an octave or a 5th from the main melody (this really only applies when it's a true counter melody). Reason being is that due to the similar harmonic content of octaves and 5ths, they tend to sound thin and not as full compared to a 3rd or 4th etc. So you can supposedly get instances in which the vocal appears to drop out if a 5th or an octave crosses over. If it's in an octave or 5th the whole time, it's fine though as nothing is changing. And of course a 2nd or 7th will often sound weird, but if you want that sound it might work for effect. As well as the 5th thing. Just something to be aware of. I am personally yet to experiment with it and see if what I read is true.

If all that is true, counter melodies should supposedly work best in general if they are 3rd, 4th or 6th from the main melody line. I touched on this in my above post, just elaborating a little ;)

Anyone experienced this at all?


If it's just a parallel harmony then a 5th or octave should work fine.

This is something I have worked on for a long time...and my results still fall well short of what I would like to achieve. But I do seem to be getting better results by working on this and experimenting with varying techniques as I read threads like this one. 

Layers are very important as are the levels of those layers and of course the FX applied. IMHO you should never clone the tracks. record again, and again as needed. 

Use melodyne to get the notes correctly on pitch. Even the good singers who sound like they are dead on all the time have their studio stuff touched up. Singing well solo is one thing, and it's easy (for some to do) but when you throw in a few harmony singers, everyone has to be dead on to sound good. When you have layers of harmonies being on pitch is a must. Start allowing a few notes here and there and before long you have a mess getting started. One singer in a harmony group of 4 or 5 singers that is off pitch slightly, sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb. In a studio, you have the time and tools to get it right. 

I also agree that many good singers can sing on the spot nice harmonies..... but..... taking the time to work out the parts will yield better results. Use more then the obvious major 3rd/5th harmonies.  Listen to the Eagles for harmonies that are rich and colorful. I have begun to use a piano to work out vocal harmony parts. My ear hears the simple harmonies when I'm singing but I tend then to double to the octave which sounds OK but in reality is nothing short of boring. To get the colorful parts, I must play the notes, already sung and what I want to sing on the keys...then I can isolate the new parts, learn them quickly and punch them in as needed. 


You do not really need to have dozens of layered voices to have full, fat, lush sounding vocals. A few good tracks, all singing the proper notes in tune, with colorful cord harmony, and a touch of verb, and you can have heaven on earth. Just go see a good vocal band live to know this is true. 

There is also the perfect balance between not enough layers and too many layers. Not enough and it sounds thin..... to many and it sounds like a freaking choir behind you.

Experiment  and see what works for you and what doesn't.  Understand too that the commercial CD's you buy are produced in the best equipped studios with experienced people........and the big bands and singers hire the best engineers money can buy and that experience makes a difference. 

I concur. I'd say when trying to harmonize vocally, work it out on an instrument first. Most do it with the melody, so why not?

And yes, adding those "color" tones and using different voicings works wonders. As I said, try this out on a piano. (Of course, this depends on the kind of sound you want)

On the part-writing thing (which is what some are alluding to) it's all about motion. When it's said that perfect unisons, fifths an octave aren't recommended (though that's not really "fair" with a m/f duet. lol), what this means is that two parts (most importantly the bass and soprano) can sing a fifth (C-G), but can't sing (D-A, E-B, etc. in the next incriment.) because they're still a fifth apart.

Granted, this seems odd when building 7ths on up to 13ths from scales because, the first & third notes are a fifth apart as are the second & fourth. The exception would be the 11th because you need to alter them (raise usually to get the P5 interval (between the 7th and 11th (the altered 11th is colored purple)

CMaj7 or CMaj9 (one more note added, but the third & fifth notes are a fifth apart)

Find all the Perfect 5th intervals

CMaj7 (9) - C-E-G-B-D-(F#)-A
Dm7 - D-F-A-C-E
Em7 - E-G-B-D-F#
FMaj7 - F-A-C-E-G
G7 - G-B-D-F-A
Am7 - A-C-E-G-B
Bm7b5 - B-D-F-A-C (not Ab)

Now, chords can be sung like that, but when written (if checked), it's a no-no. However, all the other intervals are acceptable - and use those that create dissonance to add more flavor, color - or - tension, 

The Major 7th, minor 2nd and tri-tone are the most tense intervals - even if something else is added, but they're less tense when something is added because it's make more sense to you and your ear. 

F#-C or C-F#. What is that?

Well, that's either the obvious D7, but also: 

Ab/G#7; F#/Gb7b5; F#/Gbdim7 (dim7s can be flipped; thankfully, there's only three of these as they repeat themselves.) C(b5), C7b5, Cm7b5 and so on. The thing is for a tri-tone to exist the interval is either an augmented fourth (C-F# as in D7) or a diminished fifth (C-Gb as in C7b5)  


A major seventh in any position other than root - although still tense in that position because the top note wants to walk up to said root (8va). (Raise the fifth and it'll really want to do that. Actually, two notes want to walk accordingly - especially, if it's a cadence.

G7b9 (color tone)-C, Db7-C (tri-tone substitution) or CMaj7#5 (equivalent color tone; #5 = b9)-C.

G-B-D-F-Ab; although a better resolution happens when it's written/played like this:

(Notes that want to resolve are red; where they resolve is blue.)

G-D-F-Ab-Cb -----> C-E-G-C (V^7b9-I)

D-F-Ab-Cb -----> C-E-G-C (iidim7-I)

Likewise, Db-F-Ab-Cb -----> C-E-G-C (bII (VI/iii)-I)

C-E-G#-B -----> C-E-G-C (I-I: where the first I has an altered tone in it)

 This is pretty basic, but necessary to know (=/= to spit out) when working with harmony.

Most already know it's my favorite part of music. How she moves is a big part of it and if you let her she'll move on her own.

Rus W


I concur. I'd say when trying to harmonize vocally, work it out on an instrument first. Most do it with the melody, so why not?

And yes, adding those "color" tones and using different voicings works wonders. As I said, try this out on a piano. (Of course, this depends on the kind of sound you want)

On the part-writing thing (which is what some are alluding to) it's all about motion. When it's said that perfect unisons, fifths an octave aren't recommended (though that's not really "fair" with a m/f duet. lol), what this means is that two parts (most importantly the bass and soprano) can sing a fifth (C-G), but can't sing (D-A, E-B, etc. in the next incriment.) because they're still a fifth apart.

Granted, this seems odd when building 7ths on up to 13ths from scales because, the first & third notes are a fifth apart as are the second & fourth. The exception would be the 11th because you need to alter them (raise usually to get the P5 interval (between the 7th and 11th (the altered 11th is colored purple)

CMaj7 or CMaj9 (one more note added, but the third & fifth notes are a fifth apart)

Find all the Perfect 5th intervals

CMaj7 (9) - C-E-G-B-D-(F#)-A
Dm7 - D-F-A-C-E
Em7 - E-G-B-D-F#
FMaj7 - F-A-C-E-G
G7 - G-B-D-F-A
Am7 - A-C-E-G-B
Bm7b5 - B-D-F-A-C (not Ab)

Now, chords can be sung like that, but when written (if checked), it's a no-no. However, all the other intervals are acceptable - and use those that create dissonance to add more flavor, color - or - tension, 

The Major 7th, minor 2nd and tri-tone are the most tense intervals - even if something else is added, but they're less tense when something is added because it's make more sense to you and your ear. 

F#-C or C-F#. What is that?

Well, that's either the obvious D7, but also: 

Ab/G#7; F#/Gb7b5; F#/Gbdim7 (dim7s can be flipped; thankfully, there's only three of these as they repeat themselves.) C(b5), C7b5, Cm7b5 and so on. The thing is for a tri-tone to exist the interval is either an augmented fourth (C-F# as in D7) or a diminished fifth (C-Gb as in C7b5)  


A major seventh in any position other than root - although still tense in that position because the top note wants to walk up to said root (8va). (Raise the fifth and it'll really want to do that. Actually, two notes want to walk accordingly - especially, if it's a cadence.

G7b9 (color tone)-C, Db7-C (tri-tone substitution) or CMaj7#5 (equivalent color tone; #5 = b9)-C.

G-B-D-F-Ab; although a better resolution happens when it's written/played like this:

(Notes that want to resolve are red; where they resolve is blue.)

G-D-F-Ab-Cb -----> C-E-G-C (V^7b9-I)

D-F-Ab-Cb -----> C-E-G-C (iidim7-I)

Likewise, Db-F-Ab-Cb -----> C-E-G-C (bII (VI/iii)-I)

C-E-G#-B -----> C-E-G-C (I-I: where the first I has an altered tone in it)

This is pretty basic, but necessary to know (=/= to spit out) when working with harmony.

Most already know it's my favorite part of music. How she moves is a big part of it and if you let her she'll move on her own.

Ya waaaa?????


I thought I was starting to get an ok grasp on music theory. Till now....