I've got a second cousin. He's always got the blues.

Interesting reading. Thank you guys.

  @Beepster: you said Am-E is a progression from A minor melodic. Why? I mean, I understand why E chord is in Am melodic and so I understand that Am-E can be from this scale, but there is also Am-E possible in lets say E Major scale, isnt it? Why is it from Am melodic for sure? I am interested in the theory... 

From my point of view, my assumption in the first post can be still valid, as I can justify every chord used in the song. Why not?
When analyzing the song, I looked at the verse, I saw G#m,  C#m, F#m chords, I looked at the chord wheel and found all three chords in the E Major scale. Then I looked at Am, can be iv from IV E Major (as stated in my first post)?

Chorus, well now I see it in C Major (not G), as all chords fit to C Major.

What logic did you use to say it is in C Major/A minor and part of the verse is in B? What is the reason that makes this correct instead of E Major - C Major "theory" ?

Well like I said I haven't completely ripped it apart yet. The whole IV being switched to a minor in a Major scale is foreign to me. It does not fit with traditional diatonic modal theory (as far as I know). The three "Major" scales of a Major key and their fourths are Ionian IV = Major, Lydian IV = diminished, Mixo-Lydian IV = Major. If you change that then you are not technically playing in those modes. That's not to say you can't mess around with things but on paper it doesn't fit and the minor third of that Am IV chord would appear as an accidental in notation (when looking at it as A melodic minor the Major III of the E chord would be written as an accidental but it is accepted because of the theory surrounding melodic minor). I'm really not sure why your chord analyzer is claiming E Major. That is the real mystery here but I think the biggest clue to solving it will be those minor 7th chords. What I think is possibly happening is that it is in a modified type scale like the Be Bop scale which would fit in with McCartney's jazzy style (as does melodic minor) but I'd have to analyze it further to be sure. In regards to HOW I do this stuff my method for solving keys, chords and scales is simply from constant repetitive practice of all 7 modes in all 7 keys. I've essentially trained myself to be a human version of your chord finder (probably not quite as versatile but I'm working on it). I look at the chords presented in a song and match it to the keys they fit into (can do this in my mind). Sometimes they will fit into more than 1 key (like when there are too few chords to make an accurate match). At that point I will usually just pick up my guitar and try the possible keys by either learning sections of the melody line or just noodling around to see which fits best. The PROPER way to solve a key though is on paper. I haven't done it for years so I forget the exact procedure but they teach it in music schools. I've got the method in one of my theory books somewhere so maybe if I get the time to truly analyze this song I'll give it a whirl. Anyway, yes this is all very interesting, at least to me it is. Many people's eyes glaze over after a few minutes of my musical ramblings... lol. Having said all that obviously rules were meant to be broken, especially in music, however the more I learn about theory the more it becomes apparent it's quite difficult to actually break any theoretical rules. With the regular modes of the Major keys a huge amount of what you would play is covered. I'd say probably 90% of all western music falls under this umbrella (I'm including songs that don't stick to a key but use modal theory to build melodies over top of the flowing chords). Then add melodic and harmonic minor and that number goes up. Beyond that there are scales like the Be Bop and Major/minor blues scales, foreign scales, symmetrical scales, etc that have all been studied, cataloged and used in songs. What's left? Probably nothing at this point. It truly has all been done before. That's a little sad to think about I guess as an artist but the consolation is we have easy access to all these ideas to mish mash together to create music much more easily than the tonal pioneers. Cheers!

Er, for the guys who just "play" the song, does all this theory matter ???

I've played for 50 years and have never bothered with whatever you're harping on about. And for composition, well, as long as it "sounds" OK then the progression is good.

Are you not reading too much into a simple song ?

Just askin', not criticising.

Beepster : you really need to change to FF 5. This mail, is living proof !

Cheers,
Jerry


Jerry

Meh. I got by for many years without any real theory knowledge too and I was still considered good at what I did but my improvisational skills were rather limited to a few scales. It also kind of kept me locked into certain positions on the fretboard. If I wanted to do anything outside of those parameters I had to sit down and actually write out the solos through trial and error. Rather time consuming. In my mind I figured by not learning any theory I wouldn't be corrupting my style with the same old stuff. The funny part is when I did start learning theory I realized all the stuff I was doing DID fall under traditional theory (more or less) so I was just wasting valuable learning time. Anyway I find it interesting and I think the OP asked more out of curiosity than needing help to play it so it's just a fun mental exercise. I'm also looking to get my teaching certification at some point and you kind of need to understand this stuff for that. As far as FF goes this is the only site that has problems with it so I don't plan on switching. I usually just type in html for the breaks but I'm feeling lazy today. Cheers.

^ No, I don't think he is, but there are some people who do ask: "What did you do?"

Yeah, I get the whole "sounds good thing", too, but how many (and it's both theorists and ear players) don't ask themselves why it sounds good.

It's great when you apply personification to music. I couldn't stand part-writing nor do I still, but I still employ effective voice-leading. "She likes to step-down; he likes to come up." - etc.

But I could see how it could be an over-analysis, but you could analyze TTLS or HB like crazy (that is if you decide to harmonize or reharmonize it. Both songs at their core are I, IV, V. However, you could do oodles to turn both on their ears.

It may be that he just want to know for that song or perhaps use it to take notes for when he does his own pieces.

Now, to the song:

Clearly, it's in E Major

Verse: iv-iii7-vi-ii7-iv-I-vi-iv-I (2x)

To get to the bridge:

While it's looks like - iv-bVII7-bIII (in classical analysis: this would be iv-IV7/IV-vii/IV)

The secondary dominants are thus: IV of E = A; IV7 of A = D7; IV of E = A; the vii of A (natural minor) is G. (The iv could have been a iv7 as well)

Since G turns out to be the I in the bridge, what you have is actually a ii(7)-V7-I. The entire bridge is that progression until he plays the E (which is the actual I)

Anyone can sit down to just play something, but one can't completely escape the rules of music either - even if it's atonal music (and that has rules, too). You may not care for them, but that is a personal preference.

See now? Always something more to learn. I'm actually having a hard time parsing your post out but in classical theory terms I'd probably only be second or third year student (if that). I'm self taught so I have a tendency of taking things extremely literally and I really need to work on cadences. In my mind most of the song falls within A melodic minor when viewed in my rudimentary way of looking at things. In cadence theory would using A melodic minor as the IV of E Major be accepted (now that I think about it I believe I've read about stuff like this)? Because that would pretty much explain everything. And yeah... as nerdy and seemingly unnecessary as this kind of stuff may seem it's interesting and sometimes imperative. You don't need a degree in physics to boil water for your tea but the laws behind the process are very real and if you have the mind for it it's there to be learned and understood. I think that's a big part of being human.

^ It was difficult for me, too. I didn't like the Part-writing or SD stuff, but after being self-taught or re-taught I get it. Doesn't mean I spit this stuff verbatum unless someone asks me (than I have to decide if that person really cares; yet, if it's a song they want to practice then yeah, I'll tell you (especially, if it's one of mine! You have been warned! lol)

I know this forum is more for technical type stuff but I would really love to have more discussions like this on actual music theory. It's hard to find places to really dig into the topic on the net and there are just so many talented people here that I know there could be many lively and thought provoking threads such as this. The point of all this computer crud IS supposed to be about making music so yanno... talking shop doesn't always need to be about bits and bytes and gigamawhatsits. I just love this type of convo. :-)

Beepster


I know this forum is more for technical type stuff but I would really love to have more discussions like this on actual music theory. It's hard to find places to really dig into the topic on the net and there are just so many talented people here that I know there could be many lively and thought provoking threads such as this. The point of all this computer crud IS supposed to be about making music so yanno... talking shop doesn't always need to be about bits and bytes and gigamawhatsits. I just love this type of convo. :-)

I could point you to another forum which I am a member of, but theorists though not relatively abundant are not at a loss here. 

Here's the link:  http://composersforum.ning.com/forum

You know, what's funny about that last bit, music contains bits. bytes, and whatchamadigits, too. But wait all this "shop" talk (production stuff) is talking about music; production is the other half of it. Both halves have to be good if you wanna go commercial and there are other avenues besides selling hot tracks. Of course, there are other places where you can sell your hot tracks and they become hits.


Looks like we'll get along very well!!