trimph1


OK...maybe it would be wonderful if everyone did things as real as just a microphone to a tape recorder without all these horrible effects...would that make it better for you?

See, this is why these threads are so childish. I've said probably ten times now that this isn't what I want. But you guys just keep coming back to over and over and over again, as though by attempting to paint me as some sort of luddite extremist you can undermine my position.
 

droddey


Do you really think that, say, Katy Perry's albums are not extremely edited, tuned, comped, etc... Are you that naive? BTW, just to find out what other people think, I started a thread on Gearslutz about it. Basically everything there thinks you guys are delusional:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/all-about-music/739039-proof-fakery-pop-music.html

Though some folks there take the same position as some here that the don't care, not one person there believes that I'm wrong, and they think that you guys have to be deaf not to hear the fact that somehow all pop music today is perfectly in tune and perfectly in time, and heavily edited. Then of course it immediatley got moved to an obscure section because they don't want this kind of thing being talked about too openly there for the same reasons that most people in the industry don't. And of course others also made the same (obvious) point I did about why it's not talked about.
 

Still does not make it any better who says it. If all they can do is psychoanalyze their opponents position it really does not bode well.


As for Katy Perry....really, I could give a flying toot what her producers do with her recordings. Every single pop record has featured some kind of editing, comping, and who knows what all else. There really is no need to go around blowing the whole thing up into a moral crisis now is there? Really?

I can't speak for anyone else here, so I'll speak for myself.

Words cannot express how little I care about what someone on a forum does or does not think about me.  Ooh, some anonymous collection of people on a Gearslutz forum think I'm delusional!  I don't care.  I think this is the central point you're missing.  I don't care if you think I am stupid.  I don't care what people on another forum think.  I don't care what some producer said.  I don't care because I am capable of forming my own opinions and thinking for myself.

It just so happens that I don't like some of the trends going on in the industry.  I don't need some producer to tell me that.  I don't need someone to tell me what to think.  I don't care what Katy Perry or any other artist has done on their recordings because it has nothing whatsoever to do with me.  I don't care if every single recording produced on this planet uses pitch correction.  It doesn't mean that I have to use it.   

It's not that I think you're wrong.  It's that I don't care.  It doesn't upset me that someone used pitch correction.  I don't have a personal crisis because someone used timing correction.  I don't care.

I've worded this carefully to avoid speaking for anyone else.  Others here in this forum and on this thread may have a different position on this.  I think it's worth mentioning that this thread started with someone who was sharing a technique he had used.  Whether or not I choose to use this tool myself, I can appreciate the effort he put into this. 

The only one here who's all upset about what everyone thinks is you.  You're upset that some people use these tools.  Now you're upset that some people disagree with you.  You're running off to another forum to ask them what they think about what we think.  You're so worked up about what everyone thinks and trying to argue people into thinking the same way as you, that you haven't bothered to ask, "Does anyone care what I think about this issue?"  Maybe if you had treated the OP and others who use these tools with some respect, you would have received a different reaction.  If you feel they don't deserve your respect, then this may be a clue why your opinion is not being respected in return. 

What you've done here is to launch an attack on a broad group of artists based upon your values, your opinions without any consideration for anyone but yourself.  The reason I don't respect your opinions (even if I share your dislike of certain techniques and tools) is because you disrespect those who disagree with you.  If you don't like it, that's fine.  There's an awful lot of music out there I can't stand.  There's no reason to come in here and start putting down people who view things differently than you.  That's why I don't care.

Sorry, dude. You just made all of that last part up out of the thin air. I'm not 'upset', I'm concerned about what this kind of lack of integrity in the creation of music does to music long term. I like music, so of course I would be concerned about something that I think is not doing it any favors. Why is it that if other people on a thread like this yell and at me and call me all sorts of stuff, while I just dispassionately argue my point, that somehow I'm the one all worked up and they are the poor helpless folks who are being bullied? How come, if they taunt me for providing no other corroborating evidence, that I'm now somehow doing something wrong. They wanted more, I tried to get more. A lot of professionals hang out there.

Why do I get the impression that no matter what I do, I'll be accused of being horrible, no matter what anyone else calls me or how they make fun of me, or whatever I provide to back up my position, which they are doing with equal force?  Why am I 'angry' but they aren't when they are being considerably more aggressive than I am? Why is it that my opinion is an 'attack', while theirs isn't? Why is it an 'attack' on an artist to try to get them to be clear about how they make their music? If you don't think there's anything substandard about it, then how is it an attack? It's could only even be considered an 'attack' if you believe that they would somehow stand to lose by having to admit it, as best I can tell. And I'm not making an attack anyway. I'm arguing for honesty about the process. If that's an attack, then I'm afraid we'll have to disagree on what an attack is.
 

Katy Perry's a fairly good singer and guitar player. She's not Joni Mitchell or anything, but she's pretty good, strong voice, good pitch, quite a range. Like most of what you've been saying, you're talking from a position of ignorance based on your existing musical prejudices.

John T


Katy Perry's a fairly good singer and guitar player. She's not Joni Mitchell or anything, but she's pretty good, strong voice, good pitch, quite a range. Like most of what you've been saying, you're talking from a position of ignorance based on your existing musical prejudices.

Again, making things up. I never said she wasn't at least a decent singer. I'm a decent singer for that matter. But what do her albums sound like in comparison? And if they don't sound the same, why do here albums sound different. Could it be that the things I'm talking about are being done, despite your constant attempts to make fun of that claim?

As for gearslutz, there's a lot of large talk over there. The membership of that place is not significantly weighted towards professional producers and engineers as far as I can tell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdTVNbDT_8M&feature=related

Therion...great stuff...lots of passion here.

Well, for me, all I can say is that you do come across as a kind of crusader for your cause. There is an underlying note of spiritual warrior about how you conduct this crusade and that may be the point here.

I've come across people who actually thought that all you needed was a tape recorder and a good microphone who did this very same thing..it amounted to a kind of minimalism. auditory minimalism if one could call it that.  I know a couple of musicians here that are into that and they do not bother themselves with what someone in popular music is doing. 

Oh...and thinking that the average listener is totally naive about how things are done is kind of a bit naff as far as I am concerned...I already knew that recordings were not the actual performance way back in the early 1960's ...and even before ....

Why should her records sound the same? Records and live shows are different things.

I can hardly think of *anyone* whose records and live shows sound the same, in fact.