@Droddery.....There certainly seems to be some misunderstanding going on here. I haven't denied that the use of such tools is widespread at all, I'd say it's common place.

What they don't do though is turn some completley talentless halfwit into a virtuoso like you seem to be claiming.

droddey is simply in his own hate filled world.  if katy Perry is the best he can do, his silly rant gets even sillier.  Katy is a much better singer than Britney , but you are still talking about a bubblegum pop star.  You keep diving deep in a sea of irrelevancy that makes your argument even weaker. and clearly a bad case of much ado about nothing. Engineers process her voice because they can, not because it is critical to her success. I will go out on a limb and say she is a better singer than many megastars  that succeeded just fine with little singing ability and prior to autotune.  If you showed me that the Boston SYmphony was "cheating" as you call it or even some singer actually popular mostly on the strength of being known as an outstanding singer than maybe you have a point, but you keep trying to convince us that people who's popularity is not based on the perfection of their singing are somehow cheating because the engineers who work on their record decided to do some extra processing so they can make themselves sound like geniuses on message boards. Very few artists have the pull to actually dictate the sound engineering process , so it would nto be them cheating anyway.

Also has pointed out, you have trouble answering direct questions, even ones where you yourself have thrown out statements introducing the subject.  You said their are just tons of videos on youtube teaching people how to basically perform magic.  I see a lot of auto-tunene tutorials when i search and the vast majority center around "the t-pain effect".   ironically, he occasionally sings without the autotune live.  Not a great singer but nobody seems to care. 

droddey


It's just not the same. There's a difference between the very less than optimal circumstances of a live situation causing performances to be less technically correct than they can be in the much more controlled studio situation. Long before there were all these modern corrective tools studio albums sounded better for that incredibly obvious reason. That's not what is being discussed here, clearly. We are talking about a album that the artist cannot actually have done. Not that someone did ten takes and kept the best one, which is a fairly common way to get optimal performances in the studio. But that the performance is edited, gridded, tuned, and highly automated, turning a 'decent' singer performance into a perfect pitch performance. It just isn't the same thing.

So you're saying that the engineer/producers of modern recordings are using the tools at their disposal to make a good a recording as possible?
 
Now there's a concept that may catch on, I'm surprised no one thought of it before though. Oh hang on................ 

They are supposed to use them?  
 

Its like magic. If the tools of the trade allow me a moment of others asking: "How did he do that?" then I have done my job as an engineer. Of course its illusion, all good magic is. And that is what makes sound engineering entertaining for both producer and consumer.

If you don't scratch your songs onto shellac cylinders with your fingernails, then you're a charlatan. Haven't you learned anything from this thread?

LOL - I think Dean made some very valid points that got lost in the gnawing of teeth and angst his thoughts provoked. I only got halfway through the thread as the arguments were getting circular, but I do agree that I often feel, I dunno, lied to, when I hear overly corrected productions by talentless hacks like T-Pain. But that is part of our world... there is "talent" then there is the "entertainment biz"... the two are not always inclusive, and entertainment is what pays the bills.

foxwolfen, although you come off much nicer than droddey, the choice of example still creates a very weak argument. Maybe you can explain it better than he did. How do you feel lied to when listening to T-pain? His material is what it is and clearly over-processed for effect. I doubt anyone thinks his voice sounds liek that anymore than anyone thought Peter Frampton's voice sounded like his did when he used a talkbox in the 70's. T-pain does not hide the fact he is using an effect and has never claimed to be a great singer. If anything using T-pain as an example illustrates the opposite of droddey's argument. Today's songs are highly processed and everyone knows it. My kids, cousins and anyone else i can think of under the age of 25 is very aware of what autotune is and could simply care less. To them it is no different than Peter Frampton in the 70's or Roger Troutman in the 80's, a musical fad that will come and go. None have any illusion that T-pain is a great singer. It's not like the effect even transforms him into a great singer. It just transforms his voice into a gimmicky processed sound that is popular for the moment. Like droddey, the only thing using him as an example supports is the obvious dislike of T-pain's songs. I don't like them either but he is making an honest living.

sidenote- i hate t-pain songs and i await the passing of the autotune effect fad to pass, but I'm not sure I will let my personal dislike of his music lead me to believe he is a "talentless hack". His talent may not be what is considered classical music or vocal talent, but it can be argued that it is a talent of sorts. Something can be said for his ability to be continually successful. It's not his looks. At the very least he has a unique understanding of how to get the most out of a gimmick many attempt but don't reach the same level of success. "Talent" is a very subjective term that tends to run sideways once removed from the dictionary definition of such. Talent is defined as 1)a special natural ability or aptitude. 2)A capacity for achievement or success. The 1st one is debatable, but he certainly qualifies under the second heading. His music is still **** to me, but everybody has their preferences.

foxwolfen
LOL - I think Dean made some very valid points that got lost in the gnawing of teeth and angst his thoughts provoked. I only got halfway through the thread as the arguments were getting circular, but I do agree that I often feel, I dunno, lied to, when I hear overly corrected productions by talentless hacks like T-Pain. But that is part of our world... there is "talent" then there is the "entertainment biz"... the two are not always inclusive, and entertainment is what pays the bills.

 
Hey dub, I thnk fox DID explain it in his post here to be honest. When he mentions "the entertainment business" I personally think that's all that needs to be said. We have people that can perform like maniacs on their instruments etc and people that entertain in different ways. Then of course we have people that can do both at once.
 
The industry allows people choices, ya know? The purists may not be down with those artists that entertain more than perform instruments like pro's. I think the sad thing is, the purists are upset that the majority of listeners/buyers/supporters are buying more of the hyped up "less performed" artistry than those who truly DO perform as seasoned musicians.
 
I think it depends on what school you come from. Think about this for a second bro. Some of us have practiced for over 20 years to get decent at our instruments. We know we will never be stars but we pride ourselves on the little accomplishments we've made. We're happy to be able to pick up a guitar or bass or sing, play piano or drums, and do it without something totally doing it for us.
 
For most of our lives, we have surrounded ourselves with like-minded people who share our views. When you see this new stuff getting all the acclaim it gets and really know what's going on, it's very hard to swallow at first. Some people NEVER swallow it or accept it. I think it's understandable and acceptable to be in that frame of mind. However, I also think some of these new tools can be beneficial to all of us and can save time in certain situations.
 
The other side of the coin is this...I think it's a plus to respect what someone does to make a buck because it's not easy. Anyone who can find their niche in an economy like this and be successful is worthy of praise because let's be honest...no one has had their arms twisted to buy anything. You either win people over with whatever it is you do, or you don't, ya know?
 
Take a guy like me for example. I was brought up in a world where singers were applauded because they could really sing. I grew up on Zep, Queen, Foreigner, CSR, Beatles, Journey, Styx, YES, Rush, and some of those 80's metal bands where the singers were definitely good with opera type vocals. Not to mention, though there was a bit too much guitar shredding in the 80's, those dudes could play which is what I learned from as a guitarist.
 
Keeping all that in mind as well as these bands fueling my fire, to hear something that is being manufactured that isn't really talent in the performance area....this can really bother someone like me who has spent a majority of my life trying to be good at my instruments.
 
That said, I have no problems with accepting this new form of art. I don't particularly care fo it, but I DO welcome the tools and accept it for what it is.
 
The other thing I keep beating myself up about is...who is the smarter artist...a guy like me that spent a lifetime being decent at playing and writing, or the guy that takes the short cut and becomes a star in his 20's? LOL!!!! As much as it pains me to say that, I can't blame a guy for doing what needs to be done to make a buck. I salute anyone that can win over enough people to survive doing this and am envious that it wasn't in the cards for me. At the end of the day, it's like fox says...it IS and always will be, the entertainment business. However one chooses to entertain is up to them. If people buy into it and enjoy it, more power to all of them. If it makes them happy, we're right where we want to be even if some of us may not be down with it. That's just my take though. :)
 
-Danny