I'm not sure there's anything new here, though. Taking the 80s for example, yeah, really technically accomplished bands of great singers and players were big, but so was synth pop and rap. And now, sure you might have T-Pain on the one hand, but you also have Beyonce and Adele on the other. The thing that I can't get with about droddey's argument is his suggestion that everything has gone to hell and nobody is interested in good performers any more, which just isn't true. There is, as always, a broad spectrum of stuff capturing the popular imagination, some of it very performance oriented, some not.

Danny, you make a lot of great posts here and I can see your point completely. I just think it's a completely different point than what droddey was making. The implication..no...the accusation is that today's artists are somehow cheating by using autotune and such to trick people into thinking they can sing. THAT is what he did not explain. When you hear a T-pain song do you really think the industry is trying to convince us he can sing? I'm askign that as a serious question because that to me is one of the criuxes of this discussion. I would say no, T-pain and the industry has no illusions that he can sing and they make no attempt to convince us otherwise. That flys in the face of the idea that there is a mass deception going on. Somehow dislike of pop trends is being blamed on technology as if technology is the reason the style of music of yesteryear is no longer envogue.

I'd agree with that also, John T. I think the problem is....we're seeing a different type of artist and to be honest, most of them are all about singing or some sort of sex appeal. It's almost like now, talented bands get thrown to the side. If you're not a good looking kid with abbs that is appealing, it matters not if you may be a guitar virtuoso or you have an entire band that may play like YES or Rush.

Bands with musicality don't get any points today or are accepted by less people because they just never get exploited. Even the rock stations won't support them. You hear the same old Nickelback stuff...which I DO enjoy, but sometimes it's nice to appreciate an entire band that has a bit of a muso personality. These days it's all about a 3:30 song with a hook, and God help you if you try to do anything musical within your band without being labeled as something or accused of over-playing.

It's like the spectrum of what gets marketed is too one-dimensional, ya know what I mean? For example, when I get some of the kids in my studio and we start talking about guitar and soloing, they don't even know extreme soloing existed. Once they hear it, they are blown away by it. I'm just using that as an example...but my point is, the deep, dark musicality we once heard is no longer there. Substance in music has fallen way off the charts and this is a bit sad for those of us who DO enjoy a little musicality in our listening experience.

Another example, Rush's new album is doing great right now. I believe it was #2 on the charts or something last week. If a band came out today that had a Rush influence shopped a deal, they'd probable be rejected. But because Rush has been around so long and have a bit of a following, it's doing well. Which is also proof that "if you play it and expoint it, people will come." But that's the problem..not enough different music is being pushed...so the true musos's suffer or get a bad name when in reality, if someone would just push it, it would do well as long as the album is good, know what I mean?

We're just stuck in a rut of sex appeal, singing and marketing to one general audience where people in their 40's on up have nothing they would like showing up on air or being considered "popular". That part, I think is sad because people 40+ would buy music too if they just had something worth spending their money on. :)

-Danny

to clarify, by not envogue i mean that it is not the current standard for pop. Artists as far removed from Today's pop such as Tony Bennet ( who still puts on a great show) have had number one albums. Also, genres are continually being recycled and elements borrowed.

I think that there's loads of musically sophisticated stuff around. What I think happens to a lot of older people is that they stop following the music press as avidly, don't get out and about to hear new bands as much as maybe they used to, and start only encountering new stuff through mainstream radio. Which has *always* been a terrible way to find new music.

dubdisciple


Danny, you make a lot of great posts here and I can see your point completely. I just think it's a completely different point than what droddey was making. The implication..no...the accusation is that today's artists are somehow cheating by using autotune and such to trick people into thinking they can sing. THAT is what he did not explain. When you hear a T-pain song do you really think the industry is trying to convince us he can sing? I'm askign that as a serious question because that to me is one of the criuxes of this discussion. I would say no, T-pain and the industry has no illusions that he can sing and they make no attempt to convince us otherwise. That flys in the face of the idea that there is a mass deception going on. Somehow dislike of pop trends is being blamed on technology as if technology is the reason the style of music of yesteryear is no longer envogue.

I'd agree with you there, dub. I don;t consider anything "cheating" if THAT is "your thing". I could be considered a cheater myself. I tune my guitars to an open chord. I can barely play a guitar tuned in standard tuning. I can make a full barre chord with one finger. In MY mind, I felt "work smarter, not harder. If I can make a chord with one finger, that allows the other 3 to dance around within that chord." Sometimes we use the tools we have that make us what we are. They can add personality...and I'm all for that.
 
But my point was, it's also easy to see how some could feel "cheated" in certain situations when they go through the pains of hell to really study their art and their craft to achieve the fun part of being a musician. See that's the thing for me...the fun part is the challenge. The artists using tools that make them sound better than they are are faced with other challenges I'm sure. Though I don't take the stance that droddey took on this, I must admit that using these tools to the extreme does sort of bother me in a way. But as you said, it's not like the people using them are claiming to be the best at anything. This is just what they used to catapult them to where they needed to be. Good for them I say. You know what you're getting out of the gate with those artists and to me, it's perfectly acceptable if that's their style. Now if someone like Steve Perry, Robert Plant or David Coverdale put out an album using auto-tune, yeah brother...I'd feel more than cheated...I'd probably hang myself. :)
 
-Danny

John T


I think that there's loads of musically sophisticated stuff around. What I think happens to a lot of older people is that they stop following the music press as avidly, don't get out and about to hear new bands as much as maybe they used to, and start only encountering new stuff through mainstream radio. Which has *always* been a terrible way to find new music.

+100 there mate. After we graduate high school or college, that real thing called life kicks in and music isn't the focal point of life anymore. Concert going sort of drops off a bit, wives, husbands, kids, working more than one job...it all plays a role for sure. And like you say, radio sure is a terrible way to find new music. But that said, it still to me, poses a bit of a problem as to what gets pushed. I think if you're a rock station, everything rock should be pushed...not just the in things. I still say if they play it, people will come. :)
 
-Danny

I think there's also this misconception that pop artists somehow have an easier road to travel than their counterparts did years ago and nothing could be farther from the truth. record labels are not nearly as mentoring in their artists development. In fact, grammy winning artists have been dropped by their labels for "only' going gold with their record sales. Many of the big names in pop toiled practically anonymously for years before hitting it big. I first heard Kanye West back in 1994. Eminem hit paydirt at a relatively late age for a rapper as well. It's still a hard business that does not always reward who is most talented but usually who knows who.

The world has just changed.  If I had to guess, there is more music being made today, then ever before.  With the ease of technology, especially in home recording, music is being recorded every where.  If you go into a Guitar Center, there are as many people in the Recording/ Mic/ Monitors section as there are playing guitars....maybe more.

People are n't buying real piano's these days, they buy electric pianos and synthasizers, they have more flexability and are lighter.  Check out the youngsters playing guitar amps, they spend all of their time on the Line 6 amps and digital effects.  Us old guys and our tube amps have become a minority.

I kind of agree with Danny here, in that if I was a young guy and I wanted to make it in the music biz these days, I would use what ever tools I had a my disposal.  I would also need to keep one shoe on being current and one shoe on being innovative.  But see, it does n't really matter to me these days whether or not I am "current" in what I do.  I do what I like and if others like it, well great.  It's a bit like the old blues players that learned their craft and spent their lives religiously doing the music that they loved.  A lot of people never liked it or even really got it.  They grew old and were never famous; then suddenly, out of the blue (no pun intended), they are noticed for their craft.  It may have never happened for some of them; but the point was that they were doing what they loved to do.      
 
I fully believe that most of the music buying public is pretty aware of who can play, who can sing, and what tools are being used to enhance the skills of those that can't do either.  I just don't think they care.  They vote with their money....same as it always has been.  Heck, some record mogul once told the Beatles that guitar playing bands were on their way out.  Did n't seem to stop them from doing what they loved and changing the industry.   Of course, they were incredibly talented too.  And maybe that is just the thing, if you are truly talented, you will find a way to make music with what ever tools you have at your disposal.
 
What would have Mozart or Bach done with the tools we have today. Would they have said they were not going to use them. Or would they have created even more music than they did in the day, because the tools were that much better? I don't know.

dubdisciple


I think there's also this misconception that pop artists somehow have an easier road to travel than their counterparts did years ago and nothing could be farther from the truth. record labels are not nearly as mentoring in their artists development. In fact, grammy winning artists have been dropped by their labels for "only' going gold with their record sales. Many of the big names in pop toiled practically anonymously for years before hitting it big. I first heard Kanye West back in 1994. Eminem hit paydirt at a relatively late age for a rapper as well. It's still a hard business that does not always reward who is most talented but usually who knows who.

Yeah, not to mention...have ya ever tried to dance and sing like some of them do at the same time? Whew...that right there is a job all in its own!
 
At the end of the day dub, I think it's really the same old repeating process of aging while time goes on. Like our parents would tell us "that's not real music" we that asre getting older, are saying the same thing. No one likes to see their genre or personal choice of music that once was "the in thing" pushed to the side for stuff that isn't as appealing. This will always ruffle a person's feathers even in you do accept the newer stuff. I accept it, I listen to it, and I appreciate it though it is not my thing....but I'd be lying to you if I said "I'm glad the music I love is dead and dated". LOL! :)
 
-Danny