I think it is. I think we have to give the kids behind us some credit for sophistication. 

Stealing, according to a recent report I read is way down. Part of this is because of the removal of DRM and licenses that actually permit limited sharing (as was done freely in our day). Thank you Apple and Steve Jobs in particular, as it was their effort that brought us that (see Steve Jobs Open Letter to the music industry).

I think you are spot on with the rest of your analysis though.

foxwolfen

ohgrant


Not so much do I have a problem with Dean's views, this topic was started by Dave about a recovering an old performance if I recall..I'm befuddled as to why he chooses this thread to beat that drum. Same amount of clicks to just start a new thread? 

It looks like it has been something that has been eating at him for a while. 


For myself, (and where I agree with Dean) I have a certain dissatisfaction with the industry as a whole... the protectionism, the lobby groups, the law suits of children which actually amount to extortion... all to foist what is arguably complete saccharine crap upon the consuming public. 


When I combine all these pieces, I find myself at times also disgusted when I hear a song climb the charts that I know is by somebody with marginal (or absent) talent. But then, I have to remind myself.. that is the way it is and nothing I can do will change it in any but the smallest of ways. But maybe talking about it will get others to think about it.


For myself, I am hopeful that the last ten years will fade into something far greater than what we have seen in music since the mid sixties to mid seventies. I have come across so much young and amazing talent the last couple of years, I think the current paradigm will be shifted. It is also interesting to note that there has been a trend by young folks for much better sound than what is currently the "standard" (iPod and ear buds). It seems the number of young audiophiles is on the rise. That might force a change in the way we produce music.

 
 Oh I thought you and Danny's post were spot on, the derailment was long before that. I think that lost revenue that the industry is looking for is the young crowd mp3's and free music is a problem that the industry will have to deal with. That T-Pain effect that is so in with the young crowd seems most prevalent with the Disney stuff, there're getting them hocked on it early. If I understand a video I seen on that effect it can't be used to correct vocals when set up like that only mangle them. Just about every time I'm flipping through and run into the Disney channel, I run into a teen singing with that effect as much as they can muster. I have a strong feeling the artist have no say in what effect goes on their voice and the decision makers would sooner part with the performer than the T-Pain effect. I indeed think it is a travesty but not much we can do. If you want to take it to pitch forks and torches and go down and lay siege to their castle you can count me in.
 
 I don't think in any way Dave's project will jeopardize the music industry or tear any holes in the space time continuum though
 

I personally agree with Droddey, looking at the bigger picture and looking at the history of what these production techniques has brought to the entertainment biz. I think it's cheapened the value of musicianship....to the normal listening public ....permanently. Thank god there is still a pool of truly amazing talent in the world. But, I've seen first hand, so many young people that have lost the common sense to even know the difference, and that is what is truly sad about the whole argument. I've employed editing techniques to save a mistake in an otherwise good performance, and I've done a full sequencing to emulate whole band performance from the standpoint of a single contributor. But, I don't throw whole house sample loops down and act as though I'm the creative talent ( by simply point and click composition of someone else's talent ). There is a dividing line - and I think Droddey is correct in his original arguments. To the fact that the audio snap techniques outlined by the OP were used to salvage an early recording with pooly recorded drums - in the context of saving an original performance - That's about the best reason you could ever find to use these types of tools.

foxwolfen


I think it is. I think we have to give the kids behind us some credit for sophistication. 

Stealing, according to a recent report I read is way down. Part of this is because of the removal of DRM and licenses that actually permit limited sharing (as was done freely in our day). Thank you Apple and Steve Jobs in particular, as it was their effort that brought us that (see Steve Jobs Open Letter to the music industry).

I think you are spot on with the rest of your analysis though.

I wish it were down Shad, but unfortunately, it's quite a show stopper for a little no-name artist like me. At first it's quite flattering to see your name in torrent lights....then you sort of say "hey, I must have done something right" then your sales drop off and you see why. Look at this bro...I'll be working at Burger King in no time. :( All I typed was Danny Danzi torrents in my browser. I'm not even famous other than my own little select fan base. If stealing is down, it may be that way for the bigger artists that may be able to absorb the hit...but man, it's killing little guys like me.
 
https://www.google.com/search?q=danny+danzi+torrents&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=#q=danny+danzi+torrents&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&prmd=imvnso&ei=BzjtT_3LAano0QGN4rG-DQ&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=a2bafeacc082709d&biw=1920&bih=947
 
-Danny

Rbh


I personally agree with Droddey, looking at the bigger picture and looking at the history of what these production techniques has brought to the entertainment biz. I think it's cheapened the value of musicianship....to the normal listening public ....permanently. Thank god there is still a pool of truly amazing talent in the world. But, I've seen first hand, so many young people that have lost the common sense to even know the difference, and that is what is truly sad about the whole argument. I've employed editing techniques to save a mistake in an otherwise good performance, and I've done a full sequencing to emulate whole band performance from the standpoint of a single contributor. But, I don't throw whole house sample loops down and act as though I'm the creative talent ( by simply point and click composition of someone else's talent ). There is a dividing line - and I think Droddey is correct in his original arguments.

That's something to think about there Rbh. Speaking of loops and stuff....I think we'd all be in bad shape if we didn't have samples. Just think of the synth sounds, drums, piano's, guitars and everything else we have available that was pretty much recorded in good form from the start. Can't afford an amp, use this plugin. Can't play drums or you don't have a drum kit, use this plugin and create it from scratch. Can't afford a piano, use this...don't have a bass or can't play one, use this. They sound so realistic now, everyone is a decent engineer and can get credit as being a decent engineer. LOL!
 
This allows anyone to pretty much get a decent sound no matter what. Most of the drum programs today work well right out of the box with little to no tweaking. If we didn't have those, everyone would either need to learn how to mic a kit, play a kit or we'd all sound like robotic drum machines.
 
In a sense, that too could be considered cheating. We know several guys don't have a clue about mic'ing instruments. With the way this new stuff is, they don't need to really. We could all be accused of cheating in a sense, ya know? Without VSTi synths, we'd need to buy actual hardware synths or modules...without simulation programs, we'd be forced to buy more real instruments, amps, mic's and would really need to know how to sculpt sounds. Most of us basically use these tools where a lot is already done for us. So this whole cheating thig could really get blown out of proportion. LOL!
 
If we wanted to really get technical, audio snap and auto-tune are effects....these other tools we use could really be considered the cheating part from a total purist...and they'd not be totally wrong in stating that. Then again, there is some art that goes along with us using these tools...but rest assured, if we had to mic a guitar amp, piano, drum kit or anything else, those that are getting good production right now that aren't good at mic'ing would definitely hear a different sound in their recordings. :)
 
-Danny

  My problem with the whole premise that audio-snap can somehow give you a great track from junk because you can quantize to perfect timing and everything is just peachy is not the reality as I see it. Perfect timing = 0 syncopation and that's not what anyone really wants on a track. Syncopation has been evolving for hundreds of years and is an essential part of most modern music quantizing the living daylights out of a naturally played instrument would only serve to take all energy away resulting in a stiff general MIDI, player piano sounding project. To the best of my knowledge, there is no math to syncopation it's either there or isn't. I think are  a few folks may be overestimating audio-snap if they think it turning garbage tracks into hits.

Myself, I'd prefer to not go the audio-snap route if I can help it. Not because I think it is a turd polisher but that I'm just plain lazy..if it sounds off then it just adds 'charm' to my off beat ways I guess...

The same goes for things like autotune...if I end up singing off key or something ...not that I do this all the time, then I just repeat until I get it right naturally. 

But I can see why they are used....

Syncopation has been evolving for hundreds of years and is an essential part of most modern music quantizing the living daylights out of a naturally played instrument would only serve to take all energy away resulting in a stiff general MIDI, player piano sounding project.

 
That's what the "humanize" button is for...right??
 
You know, an interesting side effect of auto tune has been that it has, in a round about way, made me a "more in pitch" singer.  It has shown me the areas in which I tend to have pitch issues when singing.  Knowing that I tend to go flat at certain pitches, or slide up to a pitch, and seeing this graphed on Melodyne, has helped me to become a better singer.  Often, I will fix some of the pitch issues and then listen to the song in correct pitch for a couple of weeks.  Amazing how when I go back then and resing the vocals, my ears have been trained and I am pretty darn close in pitch through out the song.
 
I think a lot of that goes back to what Dean said above in that old school was for bands to go out and play for years, develop and hone themselves before being discovered.  Well, in the same way, they often had a chance to refine some of the songs that they were writing and creating by practicing them as a band at length before going into a recording studio.  Shoot, now adays, the DAW is part of the writing tool.  Sometimes I don't even know quite where I am going with the vocals at the time I record it.  So, in this kind of back handed way, the auto tune effect has helped me as a writing tool.
 
I agree very much that the whole T Pain effect thing has gotten out of hand.  I hope that fad dies off soon.

You know, an interesting side effect of auto tune has been that it has, in a round about way, made me a "more in pitch" singer.  It has shown me the areas in which I tend to have pitch issues when singing.  Knowing that I tend to go flat at certain pitches, or slide up to a pitch, and seeing this graphed on Melodyne, has helped me to become a better singer.  Often, I will fix some of the pitch issues and then listen to the song in correct pitch for a couple of weeks.  Amazing how when I go back then and resing the vocals, my ears have been trained and I am pretty darn close in pitch through out the song. 

+1

mattplaysguitar

You know, an interesting side effect of auto tune has been that it has, in a round about way, made me a "more in pitch" singer.  It has shown me the areas in which I tend to have pitch issues when singing.  Knowing that I tend to go flat at certain pitches, or slide up to a pitch, and seeing this graphed on Melodyne, has helped me to become a better singer.  Often, I will fix some of the pitch issues and then listen to the song in correct pitch for a couple of weeks.  Amazing how when I go back then and resing the vocals, my ears have been trained and I am pretty darn close in pitch through out the song. 

+1

Add another +1 there for me as well. Well said Mike! I notice that sometimes something may sound a little strange in my vocals. So I'll recut the part a few times...yet it may still sound a bit weird. I am positive I'm singing it right, yet low and behold, V-Vocal or Melodyne will fix one little part that makes me realize what I was choking on. 8 times out of 10, once it teaches me where I went wrong, I recut the part because I try my best not to do much tuning vocally. So for me, it's been a good teaching tool as well as something that DOES save my butt if I've been singing for hours and am losing my voice.
 
-Danny