Here's an example of spirit of the law vs letter of the law. Rush, when doing La Via Strangiatto in the studio, tried to do the bed tracks all in one take. They couldn't ever quite get it, so they did it in three parts. Now the appologists might claim that that's equivalent to just putting down a semi-close part and using a bunch of tools to fix it up, but that's really ludicrous IMO.

They are excellent musicians, taking on a very challenging piece, which would of course have been new to them at the time. The three parts are all freaking amazing, and they COULD perform it live once they had the time to get it under control. There is no moral equivalency there with what is going on these days. That's amazing performers putting a piece together in parts, each one of which is as long as your average song, and 20 times more difficult to play. And they then went out and smoked it live.

I guess this is the thing; you see it as a moral issue, seemingly. I find that pretty odd myself.

John T

Well, the thing is, you yourself frame it in an all-or-nothing way. You raise it basically as an ethical objection. People using these tools are "cheating" and lacking "balls". You further say that you think people should just put out what they can really do. So the reason people are pointing out these exceptions is that your own argument sort of demands that they don't be exceptions. Where you've actually ended up at is "there are some tools I approve of the use of and some I don't". Which is okay, as a preference, but I don't think you can reasonably stretch that preference the distance you have done, ie: the claim that people using a tool you wouldn't are talentless con artists.

No. I've made it completely clear. There is PERFORMANCE enhancement, and there is SONIC enhancement. And there's making small exceptions to retain amazing performance vs. using tools to create good performances out of bad ones. These are not really blurry lines. One is way on the other side of the room from the other, and the only people who can't tell them apart are the ones who don't want to put in the work to get to the right side of the room.
 

I mean, to go back to your baseball point, sure, if people were caught cheating at the Playing Instruments Really Well Olympics, that would seem to violate the spirit of this non-existent event. But making music isn't the Playing Instruments Really Well Olympics.

On your "create good performances out of bad ones", you seem to be the only person on the thread who thinks this is even possible.

John T


I guess this is the thing; you see it as a moral issue, seemingly. I find that pretty odd myself.

It's an issue of legitimacy, of honesty, and of pride of accomplishement. Things that I would think any musician would want to be solidly on the right side of. But people have become so used to these types of tools, that they don't even seem to understand how putting out music you can't even perform, and letting people think it's really you, is a problem on all those fronts.
 

John T


On your "create good performances out of bad ones", you seem to be the only person on the thread who thinks this is even possible.

I mean create performances that seem perfectly in time and on pitch when they weren't either as performed. How 'bad' they were originally isn't the point, it's how much better they were made to seem than what the person could actually do, without any admission of that fact.
 

Well, taking those in order: I don't get "legitimacy" at all. I wasn't aware there was some kind of standards body adjudicating what music is proper and what isn't. "Honesty" is a sketchy one, too I think. It's absolutely common knowledge that these tools exist and get used. And people may well be proud of all kinds of work. Using these tools well is quite a skill in itself.

OK, so you're saying "even fine tuning already-good performances is wrong" it seems. This is all a bit hair-shirted for my tastes, I have to say.

I still have an open question: what if there's a record that really does sound great to you, but it's made using some of these processes (I would bet my life that there are plenty). What would you think then?