2012/06/29 00:15:22
trimph1
2012/06/29 00:27:49
foxwolfen
If I might pipe in here... using Muse as a specific example, the reason their songs seem to "explode" with that wall of sound is twofold. 1) Dynamics in arrangement. 2) All the other stuff Danny mentioned.  

Listen again to the natural spacing of the instruments and voices within the band. That wall of sound comes from the layering and interplay of the harmonics above and below. I have often been floored by what can be done in the mix with those interplays (and which is the basis of the LFO on a synth).

I am not willing to part with too many "secrets" , but on two of my songs, there are "instruments" that do not exist.
2012/06/29 00:38:23
Danny Danzi
trimph1


Danni....would this be something?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-qoxBxt30U&feature=related

I can't speak for Matt, trimph, but *I* would say no as that doesn't quite represent the wall of sound for modern music in my opinion. When I think "wall" I think modern guitars or that Good Charlotte song I mentioned that has a wall of keys and guitars.
 
This to me, is a pretty sick wall of sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lLplGY0kNU&feature=fvwrel
 
But I gotta see/hear what Matt considers to be this wall before I can even give any advice on what to do. Listen to that song though...all the holes and gaps are filled in this tune sonically speaking...there's like no more stereo space available for anything else because it consumes everything....then it breathes a little and and narrows out. The only other wall I know of his how modern guitars are everywhere in the stereo field with layering like in this tune in the chorus for example:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVsoPU4DhVA
 
Or: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33h_JRNGftQ
 
On the chorus parts...the guitars totally engulf the mix with a wall of sound...some keys in this one as well. Unless I'm totally clueless on what Matt is after, which I believe I may be, this is the kind of stuff I would associate "wall of sound" and "modern" with.
 
-Danny
2012/06/29 00:42:03
mattplaysguitar
Sure, Danny. I'll try post up a sample this weekend.

And I have one, two and maybe even three songs on my album which may actually go fairly heavy in sections, so it probably wouldn't be a waste of time! But the fact that those would be more temporary means I can get away with less wall sound and just the change into distortion in the first place is going to do a lot for the dynamics considering the rest of the album will be cleaner.

Just a quick one, how many guitars have you used in a single massive layering before? I could imagine aside from bass, two left, two right and maybe one centre would be more than anyone would ever need. Have you gone bigger before?


But I did intend this thread to be just a general Wall of Sound thread, so I'm all for any style of music here :) I'd love to hear other styles especially for future reference when I may be working with other artists (which I expect to do a lot of once I finish my album - I'm sick of writing my own stuff!!!)
2012/06/29 00:44:56
mattplaysguitar
And I'll watch all those links when I get home tonight!
2012/06/29 00:59:34
Danny Danzi
mattplaysguitar


Sure, Danny. I'll try post up a sample this weekend.

And I have one, two and maybe even three songs on my album which may actually go fairly heavy in sections, so it probably wouldn't be a waste of time! But the fact that those would be more temporary means I can get away with less wall sound and just the change into distortion in the first place is going to do a lot for the dynamics considering the rest of the album will be cleaner.

Just a quick one, how many guitars have you used in a single massive layering before? I could imagine aside from bass, two left, two right and maybe one centre would be more than anyone would ever need. Have you gone bigger before?


But I did intend this thread to be just a general Wall of Sound thread, so I'm all for any style of music here :) I'd love to hear other styles especially for future reference when I may be working with other artists (which I expect to do a lot of once I finish my album - I'm sick of writing my own stuff!!!)

That would be great bro...this way I can hear what you're really trying to do. When you mentioned "modern" in the other thread, I had assumed modern rock or today's rock with layered guitars etc. So my apologies if I got that wrong or partially wrong. :)
 
I had a feeling you wouldn't mind me posting how I've gotten some of my layered sounds...but I don't want to corrupt the thread with stuff that may not be correct in fear someone else may be reading and get the wrong idea.
 
As for layers, the most I've done where I felt it was enough was 6. On my stuff, I usually use 4 if I need that extra kick in the chorus section. Recently, I've actually been taking the Van Halen approach and am just using one rhythm guitar with a haas effect with some mid side stereo processing so that the other side of the haas doesn't appear to hit so late. That's one problem with the haas effect that has always bothered me....you think one side is louder than the other when in reality, it's not...the early side hits your ears faster so the later side gives you the impression that it should come up in volume. A littlemid side stereo processing can control this a bit....or....you double the track and flip the haas delay to the other side so that they hit evenly.
 
Meaning, say we are using a haas with a delay that is 100% wet. We have say one side at 1ms the other at like 30 ms. The side with 1ms is going to hit earlier. So if we record another guitar track and reverse the haas delay on that track, it will even things up and still build a nice sound wall because now you have 2 guitars that will sound like 4. The haas effect simulates 2 guitars in one pass depending on how you use the delay times. So if we add another and flip the delay, we have two independently played guitars with this effect and because we flipped the other delay, it offsets that part about hearing one side first and you're double tracking as well.
 
What's really cool is to play 4 independent guitar tracks of rhythm and use a few different variations of the haas delay. You can come up with some sweet sounds that way while eqing them differently. But again, this usually works better with driven guitars due to the drive in the sound making things smaller. We'll just about always get a bigger tone out of a clean guitar than we will a driven one due to the distortion taking away some of the sound size. So for you to do something like this with a clean tone, it may be over-kill. It's something you'll just need to experiment with.
 
But yeah, hook me up with some samples of what you're going for and I'll do my best to try and point you in the right direction if I can. :) And let me know if anything I've posted is along the lines and I can explain that too.
 
-Danny
2012/06/29 01:14:03
mattplaysguitar
Cheers man, will do! Just a quick question on all that - how do you find mono compatibility? Ever an issue? I've always steered well away from Haas stuff for that reason so not experimented seriously.
2012/06/29 04:40:10
Danny Danzi
Hmm I'm not sure I understand what you mean by mono compatibility, can you explain what you mean there? I have two ways I do the haas stuff. The first way is to record a mono track and then add a Sonitus delay or something in the fx bin. The delay will go stereo on its own as soon as it's in there because that's how Sonar rolls. LOL!

From there you can either leave it alone just as it is...or if you want to thicken things up a bit, you record another mono track and put another HAAS delay on it and reverse the times. Here's a general idea as to what I'm talking about.

I played a little blues lick just now in mono. It sounds like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DannyMonoBluesLick.mp3

Then I added a HAAS delay to the track in the fx bin and got this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DannyHAASBluesLick.mp3

Hear how it sort of sounds like two guitars in one pass kinda? Also, do you notice the left side sounds a bit louder or more dominant? It's really not...that's the early side hitting your ears first. Switch the pan using channel tools or something and you'll hear the right side become more dominant.

In this one, https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DannyDualHAASBluesLick.mp3 I played another guitar and put another HAAS delay on it but this time I reversed the delay time on the second one. You'll notice it sounds a little thicker because of the second guitar added and the one side dominating is no longer there. There are no pans on these guitars at all...they are straight up the middle with the delays at 100% wet. Pretty cool little trick to add a bit more sound to your mix.

And to really make it cool, I'll sometimes record 4 guitars and each one will have different HAAS delays on it which when you mess with the pans a bit...it can really kick some serious butt to fill out the space towards the middle instead of allowing it to go hard left/right like it is now. (I love stuff like this!) Then you can add one stereo guitar with a chorus effect with a little more high end than the others and allow the chorus to spread out a little on it so it's not dead center and messing with your vocals, kick, snare etc or whatever else you have down the middle. Change up each sound and eq it differently, and bang...you start to get your wall. Send all the guitars to an instrument bus and compress them as an entity and they really tighten up nicely. Add your drones or high end keys...or maybe have 2 guitars playing the chords you're playing an octave higher (don't use a pitch plug...physically play it an octave higher..it will slay!) and you can really do some damage.

Hope this helps a bit Matt. :)

-Danny
2012/06/29 05:31:47
Bristol_Jonesey
What do you use for your Haas delays Danny?

I downloaded a freebie and on my old rig it introduced quite severe crashes - so much so that I sent the project to Cakewalk and they confirmed that it was this plug - I can't remember the name of it - but once I removed it from my system there were no more crashes.
2012/06/29 07:37:29
mattplaysguitar
Wholly freaking bajeebus! You can play guitar! Those are some mad skills! I was amazed by the first lick, but then to see it done perfectly on your second recording so they are both so perfectly in time! That's some serious consistency!

By mono compatibility I mean if you convert the track to mono, does comb filtering from the combined delays become an issue? Or because you are using multiple guitars and different volumes in the Haas delay it works ok? It might be complex enough to not really become a major issue.

Yeah I see what you mean about all those different examples you posted. Very full sound obviously built from a multitude of layers and nicely mixed. But yeah, a different style to what I'm doing but I'll experiment with some Haas and see how it sounds.

Impressed by how good your cover is sounding. I can see obviously the bass needs that work but those guitars sounding great! And amazingly performed solo. The control and timing in that just grooves so perfectly. That's the kind of thing that timing correction tools could NEVER do. That style of playing comes from REAL playing and you can't fake that. You either play it or you don't.


Anywho, got some samples of a few songs I put up a while ago to show a friend how my producing was going. All just in demo form (so yes, I will re-record those vocals!!) except the drums and bass. Only getting a few ideas going with all the synth sounds so some are still a bit cheesy sounding, but I'll hopefully iron that out over the coming weeks. The song that could do with a bigger wall of sound type feel in particular out of the three would be the one called In Your Name. Guitars at the moment are just tracked through a zoom pedal DI into my card so pretty rough sounding right now but you get the idea. Anywho, less down talking, more linking!

http://snd.sc/LwtFcf

And hey, maybe my songs don't really suit a wall of sound so much anyway. That's what I've got in my head, but maybe they don't actually suit too much? See what you think. Always happy to hear of any critique in any regards of course. And I understand there is a bit too much going on sometimes which I will tone back ;) I'm just experimenting to see what works and what I like!
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