+1 all,

for me its kind of like ducking a kick into a bass

IOWs ... use LCR only when/where things conflict ... especially in the highs. 

Interestingly, most all of us oft widen the high freq stuff in our masters ... perhaps the ears seem to approve selective widening of the highs.  Its the non-highs that beg centrality for purist ears.

@ ASG: "Wall tracks" 

Well, panning "correctly" only solves part of the problem. The other part sounds like EQ.

However, there is a way to get improved "Stereo Separation."

I was offered this advice and my tracks sound better. 

You mentioned vocals, so I'll use them as an example. Are they doubled? If so, if they come in @ measure 8, slide the track doubling slightly. If this is done, plus panning.

While it's a case of "too little room with too many tracks," you're experiencing the opposite: "too much room with too few tracks."

I'm not saying that's bad, but just a symptom. With too many tracks, something needs to go vs. something's missing with too few.

I wonder if you've listened to the piece ad nauseum to where you don't know what to do. I've been there; however, it took walking away. Coming back focused not trying to force things and even though I still exhaust trial and error, I'm not frustrated doing so.

The arrangement I did started off with a constant rhythm - well, constant everything - and this was evident upon a critique. I went back and did some revisions to the arrangement and realized how much better it sounded.

I split the track into sections and I just finished the third section. I have the end (fifth section) set in stone, but the section just before that, I may work on some more and each time for me, I like the piece more.

Anyway, experiment and keep in mind the criticisms made, but first and foremost, do not force things. It may be that you can't do an entire song one way throughout, but considering the genre used, that's one of the easiest ways to go about it.

The whole "box" thing: most start "in-the-box" before they can continue "out-of-the-box"; however, they do go back in there now and again. If that is, where you feel you left an important tool to help further the development of your creation, nothing wrong with that.

I've got the same instruments throughout my 7:00 signature, but each "part" is different.

But yeah, walk away every now and then. Make a copy (or two) of said file experimenting in keys areas (composition/arrangement). Document as much as possible. When you come back, maybe something would have come to you.

Btw, rest your ears, too as it is also very common to be enamored with a piece only to realize how not-so-good it actually was/is. (This could be from an arrangement standpoint, but most definitely from a production standpoint) 

In both cases, you need to rest your ears and even your mind and have someone else have a listen (the critiques) because what sounds good to you. may not be; however, that isn't destructive criticism nor should it be taken as such. The negatives noted actually helped some of my pieces and they'll probably helped yours, too.

Does this help some?

all advice helps. stereo separation is a term ive never heard before what does that mean

Philip


+1 all,

for me its kind of like ducking a kick into a bass

IOWs ... use LCR only when/where things conflict ... especially in the highs. 

Interestingly, most all of us oft widen the high freq stuff in our masters ... perhaps the ears seem to approve selective widening of the highs.  Its the non-highs that beg centrality for purist ears.

Only once you start getting up into the mids and up do the frequencies become sufficiently directional in the room to really be solidly placed to the far ends. Really high passed acoustic or electric guitars or shakers or tamborines and such, those when placed hard left or right really seem wide. Probably it also helps that high frequency stuff on the far edges are probably less likely to destructively interfere in the room, I would think, making them even more apparently separated.

@ASG:

 While there are other members who can explain it better than I, I'll try.

First, I'm gonna start with midi. You know about channels, right? While they aren't the same thing, if you're starting out you probably co-sign channels according to the track's number. (Ch1/Trk1, etc.) Even if you've een at it for awhile, it avoids confusion - that is, until to start moving tracks around; however, track =/= channel)

If a sound is duplicated (same sound + channel), the sound gets boosted drastically. Now, unless you want this, avoid this. If you run out of channels, bounce the midi to audio to free up more channels - although the same 16 are available.

Now, with the midi volume boost out of the way:

Stereo Separation which you can get with audio tracks easier than midi (if that can be done with midi, idk)

While midi has the volume boost issue, audio has a phase issue. This can be demonstration if two people singing/talking into mics pass by each other. The audio heard from the speakers goes silent momentarily. 

This is due to the "sweet spot" where the mics cross and the audio may die down before it completely stop. This is known as "phase cancellation." Dance/Techno genres use this sound predominately.

Think of it like "crossfading," but what's suppose to "fade-in/out" does so too late.

This is the case when two or more audio tracks collide/coincide with each other. They're both fighting for that "sweet spot."

The best example I can think of is an airy vocal recording doubled. There's going to be some phase there - possibly an egregious amount if it's not tamed well. Now, you may not get the phase, but like you said, you don't want some tracks sitting on top of each other. 

Therefore, nudge one of them ever so slightly and this adverb is key if you want to to appear like the whole "Stereo Field" (where pan comes in) is being used.

Relating this to midi. Regarding the piano + strings in my tracks, neither are strictly on beat. (This is just with straight chords, but my bass lines are certainly off-beat/syncopated very often)

It's common for the piano + strings to be layered, doing the same thing at the exact same time. However, "nudging" one or both gives them the "separation" to help maintain their separate identities even if they seem like they're doing the same thing. (ie: either one is on beat while the other is slightly off.) 

With me, everything besides the rhythm is off-beat and perhaps it's also off-beat; however, in complete context, it all sounds very well glued together

Again, that is "Stereo Separation" for midi. 

It's the same with audio.

Let's say you have Vox 1 and 2 60% from center equally to get better separation, so it's the same thing, but done at a different time, slightly nudge one of them by a few ticks. This "widens" the signal across the stereo field. I recommend this because subtly is one's best weapon. It'll take practice, but this can be achieved.

An example would be layered instruments. Unless you want to be obvious: 

This is a PIANO + STRINGS; however, when in context and even not - This is PIANO + strings is probably better. Heard than seen or Seen than heard. With me so far?

With vocals (but not limited to), this technique is used adamantly. It's obvious we can tell the panning situation: Lead Vocal center, BGV away from center, but they aren't completing with the lead vocal. Whether they're all singing the melody or the BGV consists of complex harmonies, the lead is dead center because it is the most important part.

Much like principle instruments in the orchestra. Where to they sit? Upfront and center because they lead the entire group! Now, members are surrounding them whever the section sits, but they are the focal point.

LCR panning is just one part of stereo separation, but timing is the other part.

Off-beat bass + strings surround the on-beat piano.

Off-beat everything else surrounds the on beat drums. Try listening to something syncopated without rhythm - and no matter how well you can count, you'll miss a beat at some point. (Unless you know the song top to bottom, back-to-front and sideways)

Techno/Dance and everything in-between those two genres are famous for syncopation tripping you up until the beat comes in.

This ties in as the nudge vocal is "off-beat", though you can't tell because of how subtle or because everything else is playing.

I gave the example of the Chorus effect. It's many instances of the same sound (signal) that is slightly off with each instance. This veers into frequency/frequency of pitch, but:

A440 doesn't sound like A440 when the chorus knob is wide open; however, as you slightly creep it upwards, you start to notice the effect. The note becomes "fat or widened" because of all the "wet" signals diluting the dry one. (Reverb/Delay/Flange/Phase works the same way)

If you're still confused, play with those "wet" knobs to see how they function. They're just "quantifying" the repeated signal.

Did this help as well or no? I did touch on other issues, but they do tie into this. (I think)

John T


Actually, the thing with the Beatles' stereo mixes is that nobody was interested in them til around Abbey Road / Let It Be time. Even George Martin wasn't generally bothered. They were mostly knocked off quickly after the mono mixes were done, often by junior staff.

It was a big mistake looking at it with hindsight though, no?

I often wonder whether we are as guilty of that exact same kind of oversight perservering with stereo when most homes these days are equipped with some kind of surround listening facility.

A further thought on this: running with the idea that you don't really have fine graded positional control, it can be useful to think in five positions: L - LC - C - RC - R. It's less utterly definite than strict LCR but can be a good starting point for a more interesting stereo image, without ending up all over the place. The most useful thing about experimenting LCR is, again, abandoning the illusion that separating things by 10% gives any meaningful stereo separation, and hearing some actual separation.

I'm a big fan of LCR panning. But some would say my style of music is very dated. I like old country, oldies, music from the era when Stereo first started becoming available and a lot of producers experimented.

Recorded music sounds blah to me without some kind of noticeable panning. After all ... what we listen to music on is called a Stereo, not a Mono. ;)

That said, I always mix in mono, get it sounding good, then I do my panning and season to taste. My personal belief and I could be wrong, I'm far from a professional, is that it should sound good when all the music is up the middle to avoid any frequencies related problems.

Here's an old country song I covered (It's loud, turn heads/monitors down) with everything hard panned except for the vocals and bass, and even the vocals are panned slightly to the right, backups to the left slightly. A lot of recordings from that era are hard panned with heavy reverb to fill out the mix.

One of the best examples in my opinion is the rare version of Blue Moon by The Marcel's in stereo. I tried to find a link on youtube, but there is no original stereo mix there, only mono. I have it on a Billboard Top Hits 1961 CD and it's awesome. There's a few songs on that CD that had some very interesting panning.

Unless you are trying to put something out for a commercial release where everything seems to be up the middle and compressed to oblivion now days, I say have fun with it. Do what you think sounds great, and I bet if you play your stuff for your friends, the unique sound will catch their attention and they'll like it because it's different.

Does no one here use movement across the field, like modulated delays and bouncing stuff around the space?

Or are we all in the mono is more manly camp (pun intended), and whatever George Martin did 50 years ago is still the 'correct' way.

Of course it's all illusion and creating an impression but isn't that part of the fun that LCR kills?

I remember all those Moody Blues records of the late 60's and early 70's blowing my mind with all sorts of stuff flying around my head.  I love all that still you can't do any of that with a static hard pan.

Who cares if it doesn't make the same sense if you are off centre as long as it all still sounds good?  Many people use buds and stuff to listen so why not give them some extra fun too?

Is movement making things sound as if they are moving around in a space?

Because if that is I might actually be doing that....