• Techniques
  • The three most important elements of mixing - Compression, EQ and Reverb. Yes? (p.3)
2012/05/28 02:55:16
SongCraft
foxwolfen


Danny, one of the virtues taught to us in university was a concept called succinctness. I think you give some great advice, but bro, I just cant wade through all you write.  

So, perhaps you addressed this already, and if you did, I apologize, but... Reverb is perhaps THE  most critical part of a mix, whether you use a little or a lot. Reverb defines our world. Reverb is how we judge space and depth. Reverb should be the single most important thought in an engineer's mind. Reverb also defines many other aspects of music other than space... it defines style, it defines generation.

With a well recorded source, you can do with out EQ, without compression.... but no reverb (which includes the sound of the recording environment) and the mix will be flat and lifeless... always.

Just my 2C
Shad

+1 Excellent! 


Only exception is my voice :(  it isn't really that great and often requires specialist care to detail in regards to performances, EQ and reverb.    As for compression?  (again, my voice) low ratio (1.2 to 2.2) and longer release times (softknee approach), I spend more time with automation, whereas years ago it was.... all hands on deck (mixer), all hands on deck, fire at will, fire at will. 


My Workflow; 


All my recordings start with the 'song' (piano + vocal, or guitar + vocal) along with pen + paper. The song is written long before I boot up the DAW....


From thereon the very first thing I do is find the right tempo that 'feels' good and get a vocal guide (and sometimes harmonies vocal tracks also) recorded along with a simple beat as a glorified metronome = midi drums (all on separate tracks of course)! 


Then I grab my chainsaw and cut up the vocal guide tracks (and drums) into parts such as; intro, verse, bridge, chorus, outro, whatever :)  


From hereon this makes it easier to work on the song and arrangements. 


So anyway.... the most important thing is to enjoy :) 



2012/05/28 03:08:37
BenMMusTech
Ok you have a good idea but don't over think mixing.  Do you understand the fletcher munson curves, this will give you a better idea about mixing and I use it as my guide when I mix.

Fletcher Munson curves tells us that we percive different frequencies at different volumes.  Now heres a trick I suggest you do, import into Sonar a song that you can use a reference and then using the Span Voxengo frequency analyser to see how the track behaves in terms of frequency response.

And this is why Fletcher Munson curves are importent, you will see instantly that the bass frequency and lower mids is where all the meat of the track is.

Ok put this to one side, and now think about what you are recording, is it a bass guitar with an amp or an acoustic guitar or keyboards with a DI.

Think about two things mic selection and mic placement, this is the first fundmental in audio recording, so Danny is right, get this right and it should all fall into place, in terms of the mix.

Get in there with with your ear and listen and when you find the sweet spot of the acoustic, place the microphone.

Now micing up a amp is different, some like David Gilmour and this is why I suggested historical perspective, just place the mic wherever, and these are his words.  Others like the true and tried method of a certain AKG and an SM57 in an off axis position, so pointing at the side of the amp.  Hell I even know people who like to put one at the back of the amp and this can be useful if they are using a spring verb on the amp.

And here is the 2nd lesson in audio 101, gain structure.  In that signal chain, everything has to be set to a correct level it's no good if the guitarist has his guitar or his amp up to loud because you are just going to clip.  Now if you are just DI the track and using amp sims my technique of recording hot comes in handy because that is half the problem solved in terms of a getting a rich full guitar tone.

So here are two things that make a good recording, mic technique and gain structure.

Next this is where Shad (foxenwolf) is right and you need to go back to the history books, read up how David Bowie and Tony Visconti got his reverb sound on the track Heroes.

A well recorded room sound gives the track space and perspective and yes def Reverb is the third fundemental of recording, now this is where it gets confusing.

In the 50's it was all about room sounds, or the famous chamber reverbs at EMI and Capitol Records, now I won't go into semantics but once again do some research, this all changed in the 60's with close micing techniques and a fairly dry drum sound, this is how The Beatles latter albums were done.  This lead to to the completly dead studio concept in the 70's where the famous lexicon reverb was introduced and this where your understanding of how to EQ a reverb comes in.  Also Stav (Micheal Stavrou) talks about the concept of the black back drop, or where the recording has so much space you can peer into it, think Dark Side of The Moon.

Basicly the idea is to remove any and all the frequencies not being used by certain instruments using a hi or low shelf filter and close micing your instruments.

Confused??

Ok so what I am suggesting to you is there are two techniques, recording a band in a live room requires mic placement, mic selection and an understanding of how to capture the space by way of again mic placement and mic selection and I highly recomend Heroes as a guide because it will give you an understanding of how and why you record reverb or your room sound.

The second technique is recording everything close miced and we add in the flavours in the mix and this requires a different skill set and a different mind set to get the best out of what we have recorded, and in this technique mic placement and selection is still crucial and so is gain structure but understanding how to use EQ, Compression and Reverb units become your fundements in getting a great sounding track.

So what we have here is two different techniques, one the old way of doing it (all live in a live space) and still very much in vouge esp around Melbourne at the moment, if you think of all the indie folk pop coming out at the moment.

And the 2nd which is really the modern way of recording, this would be if you are doing a peicemeal recording, laying down one instrument at a time.

If you can indicate to me how you are recording or what you are recording, I can put you onto the correct method and recomend some techniques, to help get better recordings.  Don't go to my soundcloud page and go I don't know what I am talking about or maybe you should because on my soundcloud page is almost 6 years of the experiments that I have gone through to get to this point, Danny likes to point out their deficiencies but this is not an ego thing.  Just tell me what is the most commen way you record and I can point out some resources to help you on your way.

I have books and guides that I can scan and send your way, I also know and understand recording history, which makes for interesting reading and can give you some clues about how to achieve certain flavours and nuances.

It's up to you, I can take you through the various stages of recording, mixing and mastering, if you can tell me where you are in terms of your journy.

And thats my final peice of advice, because your question is loaded, um, in that we are talking about three different processes that can make a difference in your recording/music quality and it use to take three different engineers to do what now one has to do.  And we haven't even touched on songwriting, arranging and prodcution, which normaly was handled by a mad genius producer, think Phil Spector and George Martin.

Regards Ben
2012/05/28 03:23:12
droddey
If you are talking about mixing, I would say that the three most important things are :

1. Balance
2. Balance
3. Balance

And everything else is a good ways after that. Balance if the fundamental operation of mixing really, and mixers used to be called 'Balance Engineers'. Half the things I used to struggle with to try to make something sound right were due I tink to those things not being at the right level in the mix. Making judgement on things when they aren't at the appropriate level in the mix is kind of like EQ'ing in isolation in a way.
2012/05/28 05:18:22
Jonbouy
droddey


If you are talking about mixing, I would say that the three most important things are :

1. Balance
2. Balance
3. Balance

And everything else is a good ways after that. Balance if the fundamental operation of mixing really, and mixers used to be called 'Balance Engineers'. Half the things I used to struggle with to try to make something sound right were due I tink to those things not being at the right level in the mix. Making judgement on things when they aren't at the appropriate level in the mix is kind of like EQ'ing in isolation in a way.


Exactly, balance freq's (up-down) balance prominence (front to back), balance position (left right), and most definitely NOT in individual isolation (except when getting some detail of a problem that's showed up in context first).

I'm starting a dance mix just now I ain't got, nor do I need, any well-intentioned parts all recorded with the song in mind (aside from a lovely vocal track), and anyone else can go their own way, but before I go compressing, gating, expanding, tanking up with reverb or adding any other toys, I'm getting that balance working first.

I saw this as a mixing question in the OP rather than a recording one.  And of course on an acoustic style track the original acoustics may well be part of what's required, but as a matter of principle to apply to ANY genre get that balance right FIRST.
2012/05/28 05:36:20
John T
That thing of "record it right in the first place and it won't need EQ" is, I think, something of a fringe case, at best. It applies *occasionally* to *certain* kinds of material. But actually almost never applies to the majority of material. Try making even the simplest four piece rock band record that way, and you'll be pretty hosed. Anything with any electronic aspects, you're equally sunk. There are no silver bullets here. Yes, you have to record well. And then yes, you also have to mix well.
2012/05/28 05:52:30
Jonbouy
That thing of "record it right in the first place and it won't need EQ" is, I think, something of a fringe case, at best. It applies *occasionally* to *certain* kinds of material.


Totally agree, although maybe not on this particular (dare I say fringe?) forum.
2012/05/28 06:00:53
SongCraft
droddey


If you are talking about mixing, I would say that the three most important things are :

1. Balance
2. Balance
3. Balance

And everything else is a good ways after that. Balance if the fundamental operation of mixing really, and mixers used to be called 'Balance Engineers'. Half the things I used to struggle with to try to make something sound right were due I tink to those things not being at the right level in the mix. Making judgement on things when they aren't at the appropriate level in the mix is kind of like EQ'ing in isolation in a way.



+1 


Yes of course balance is critical and it's been a crucial part of my performing and recording experience for a very, very long time here's why... 


IMO it's critical to hear things in perspective as it helps me get the right feel (expression), to get the best performance during recording. Sure I might change pan position temporarily when working on harmonies but usually I do this for recording/monitoring purposes, my preference)! 





2012/05/28 06:14:30
Danny Danzi
foxwolfen


Danny, one of the virtues taught to us in university was a concept called succinctness. I think you give some great advice, but bro, I just cant wade through all you write.  

So, perhaps you addressed this already, and if you did, I apologize, but... Reverb is perhaps THE  most critical part of a mix, whether you use a little or a lot. Reverb defines our world. Reverb is how we judge space and depth. Reverb should be the single most important thought in an engineer's mind. Reverb also defines many other aspects of music other than space... it defines style, it defines generation.

With a well recorded source, you can do with out EQ, without compression.... but no reverb (which includes the sound of the recording environment) and the mix will be flat and lifeless... always.

Just my 2C
Shad

With all due respect Shad, the difference between your posts in this field and my long posts (if you someday bother to read them) is you leave someone that is in need in this field, still in need. You talk of reverb but do not explain ANYTHING about it. If you read the op's question, and then his reply comment to me, he literally asked me questions. I answered them, provided scenarios as well as a technique and what has worked for me. The post is long but the post is thorough and accurate while sharing a bit of my personality in it as I write. It's quite alright that it may not be to your liking or may be too long. It wasn't intended for you if you take that stance and I don't mean any of this with any hostility. But there are those who want to learn and to learn, we must share.
 
If people want to learn about this stuff and enjoy a read, this is why I post here. One line answers will not answer most questions due to the infinite possibilities in this field. I offer some of those possibilities up for the price of logging in. To help, inspire and share things that have worked both in my world and the worlds of others. If succinctness is all you care about in a field that has so many variables it can blow a persons head off and totally lose those that are new in this field, then you are the man they should be listening to instead of me. Please continue to share.
 
You also need to re-read Jon's post without any hostility because it was spot on. We live in a world of samples, beats, grooves and simulations that need no reverb to make a mix sound good. And also, the man that buys into something not needing any eq at all....is the man that needs to post mixes of this brilliance to claim such a thing while teaching us exactly how these mixes were achieved if they really want to teach and hold some credibility here. It's not easy to capture a sound that may need little eq vs a sound that needs lots of eq. You gotta either use a sample or know what you are doing to achieve these "no eq" results. Trying to convey that to someone in search of answers without explaining it in depth does them an injustice.
 
That said, I will peacefully disagree with the comment about reverb being as important as you have made it out to be. To focus on, or claim reverb is the most important factor in mixing = a bad final result and a cover-up masking the truth in verb. I'll take a well eq'd mix with all the right stuff without any verb before I'll even waste any time messing with reverb or holding it in as high a regard as you have. It's icing on the cake, not a necessity. But that's just me.
 
-Danny
2012/05/28 06:38:44
SongCraft
Hey wait up, did someone mention Fringe? aww man I love that TV series 

((Sorry for being OT; I saw that word pop up and just had to jump on it immediately))
2012/05/28 06:39:17
mattplaysguitar
John T


That thing of "record it right in the first place and it won't need EQ" is, I think, something of a fringe case, at best. It applies *occasionally* to *certain* kinds of material. But actually almost never applies to the majority of material. Try making even the simplest four piece rock band record that way, and you'll be pretty hosed. Anything with any electronic aspects, you're equally sunk. There are no silver bullets here. Yes, you have to record well. And then yes, you also have to mix well.

Agreed. Try and get that classic heavy thumping kick sound with a tight high end snap and no boxiness with just kick selection, tuning, mic selection and mic placement. Sure, you might get it sounding pretty nice and suitable for plenty of genres, but if you're going for that commercial processed sound, it just ain't gonna happen. These things will only get you so far and eq can take you those last few yards.




I was trying to post a picture of a different way of organising that I'm trying to do, but it wasn't working, so take 2. I did a quick sketch of where I'm trying to put everything at the moment. I've missed snare but the general layout I'm working on is below. First is verse, section is chorus. Anyone else work with this type of method?




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