• Techniques
  • The three most important elements of mixing - Compression, EQ and Reverb. Yes? (p.5)
2012/05/28 08:38:00
mattplaysguitar
Danny Danzi


SongCraft



Oops! Sorry, unintentional Post! 

Dang it, either I'm having forum format issues or Danny has slipped me a blue pill. 

I need to have a nap! 

Have a great week everyone :) 

Ah might as well blame me...it's ok, I got big shoulders for a lil guy. :)
 

 
LOL! :)
 
-Danny

Ooo don't mess with the guns!!!




2012/05/28 08:40:21
Danny Danzi
mattplaysguitar


Danny Danzi


SongCraft



Oops! Sorry, unintentional Post! 

Dang it, either I'm having forum format issues or Danny has slipped me a blue pill. 

I need to have a nap! 

Have a great week everyone :) 

Ah might as well blame me...it's ok, I got big shoulders for a lil guy. :)



LOL! :)

-Danny

Ooo don't mess with the guns!!!





LOL look at you! You got me smoked there buddy! Hahahahahaha! One of your arms is two of mine...no fair!!! :-Þ
2012/05/28 09:10:18
Guitarhacker
First.... I didn't read all the posts word for word.... I skimmed a few then skipped others. 

So this may have been covered...or not. 

While EQ, compression and reverb are important, they are not all that is required to get that full, wide, professional sounding mix.  I'm still working towards that myself so I consider myself to be a student of the audio arts..... still learning.

Obviously a great tracking session yields tracks that require a minimum of EQ and compression as someone else has said. I agree. Great tracks make the mixing easy. I still find that I will often need EQ and compression on some of them... depending mostly on the song, more than anything else. 

Proper EQ on a track allows the various instruments to set properly in the mix, in their own space and not interfering with each other. Solo, they may not actually sound their very best, but they sound superb in the mix and in context with everything around them. 

Compression.... I use this sparingly to keep the peaks down to some degree, and add some punch in the music..... I use the multi-band quite often, and sometimes a cake default on a guitar...if I need it, and only if I need it.

Reverb.... many times my tracks are dry.... even the vocals. I place the reverb in the vocal buss and generally have it cracked just enough to add some ambiance. I believe generally that you should not be aware of the reverb .... just the feeling of the space.  My practice is generally... add the verb, select the preset starting point, turn it up until I hear it clearly (solo the track) then back it off until it's not obvious.... or slightly less than obvious. The point is I don't want to hear the reverb, I want to feel it or sense it. 

On guitars, reverb is often an essential part. So I do use verb on the guitars... sometimes in the tracks and sometimes in the buss with multiple guitars. And on this, the rules are different.... add to taste. 

I have also noticed with reverb that having a slightly heavier guitar verb will impart the sense of reverb to the vocals without the need to put verb on the vocals. It's subtle and sometimes it works well. 

Panning..... I believe is critical to a mix. Putting everything down the center or randomly in the stereo field is often not the way to do things. I try to balance the mix. Each mix is different. 

Experience: the most important part of the equation. Knowing what to do, how to do it, how musch reverb, EQ, and compression to add, when, where, and WHY...... well, only experience can tell you the specifics on this. 

One thing Ben pointed out..... mix the music at a low volume. Fletcher-Munson plays a factor in the mix as well.... music sounds better loud, but... if you can get the mix to sound really professional at a low level, when it gets cranked, it usually only sounds better...... but the reverse is NOT true.  I only crank the levels when I am very, very close to finished, and only one time through...then it's back down. Just to check the mix at volume. 



Danny should really consider writing a book with his knowledge and ability to write on subjects in depth, explaining things....... 
2012/05/28 09:36:14
trimph1
What I'd love to  see is a weekly posting from Danny about certain aspects of recording...he does have a book in him!!
2012/05/28 09:54:58
Jonbouy
Oh no!

I'm gonna have to refer to Matt as Popeye from now on, hyuk hyuk.

I'm gonna revert back to my Wimpey self and say, "I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday"...
2012/05/28 09:59:22
Danny Danzi

Yeah man, that would be brilliant to see when you get a chance. I like this idea of having some sort of planned soundscape and having a few options to choose from and see what works best for me would be great!
 
You got it brother! :) Ok, this sort of thing isn't for everyone, but it's something I always try to do as I'm reviewing a mix and getting my ducks in a row as I am also getting familiar with the mix. Creating a sound space is important to me. Even if I'm the only one that feels that way, it has helped me loads with controlling mixes.
 
The illustration I'm going to share with you was a rock mix I did for a client. Of course this stuff changes from mix to mix, but in this particular example, I felt it was the best way to go and we came out with fantastic results. I'll post the illustration and then explain it all.
 
Better image: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DanziLandMusicSoundStage12.jpg
 

 
What you are seeing here is a basic sound stage using pictures of instruments and how they are panned. If you were sitting in the audience this should be what you are hearing as well. Though most sound systems are mono at clubs, in a real concert situation or in a theater hosting a pro band, you'll more than likely get stereo.
 
The line running through with the arrows represents our pan field. The imager stuff I will explain more about later in this message.
 
Drums: Let's start with the drums as they always seem to take the most time and are discussed quite a bit in terms of engineering. I'm one that doesn't like extreme drum pans in my mixes unless the mix calls for it. I see no reason to go further than 50% in panning or the drums become disconnected. What you see is just that. An illustration using Superior as my subject because the client used that exact kit. As you can see, we never go out of the 50 % pan field on the drums, therefore keeping them tight and not all over the place with tom pans and cymbals hitting all over the place. Sometimes I may go out to a 75% pan on the drum kit, other times a 40% pan. It depends on the mix, the genre, the kit being used as well as the other instruments supporting the mix. By the time we add some room to the kick and snare and then process the snare with a bit of verb, they no longer occupy a basic, centered pan field. They too reach out beyond the center to an extent.
 
A verb on a snare should not be a stereo verb that allows that snare to crack from 100 to 100. The snare is behing the kit. The snare should stay between the floor tom and the hats or go no wider than the hats and the ride cymbal. Sonitus Phase and plugs like it are your friend when controlling the width of effects. Or you use the width controls in the Sonitus plugs or any other plugs that offer that feature. But don't forget to do it because effect panning and eq is as important as instrument panning and eq.
 
Guitars: The guitars you see are 4 layers. The 2 main guitars that drive the song are panned at 85 L/R. The ones at 60% L/R are supporting layers that come in during chorus parts. The space they take up during that time was essential to this mix having the modern rock impact it needed. You should eq these differently and can also effect these supporting guitars with a bit of chorus just to make them a little thicker. Their volume, however, should be supportive, not as loud as your main guitars.
 
Bass: The bass is self explanitory of course. :) Though some people like to slightly pan their kick, snare and bass, it's not someting I feel needs to be done for the simple fact of what Shad mentioned about reverb. This is where you can make a bit of a difference eventhough something may be panned center...and this is what my "imager" diagram is all about which I will share with you now. But as far as bass goes, unless I add a slight bass chorus or a layered, hybrid bass sound, this is the only instrument that maintains a solid, centered pan.
 
Vocals, back ups and imaging: When we place something in a pan field, we can literally stretch it out to be something it really isn't by way if imaging. The imager relies on a stereo effect before it and can only be used AFTER that effect. For example, let's look at the lead vocal. It is centered. However, with a slight doubling effect using the Vocal plug offered in Sonar or a slight chorus or a verb, and we can literally stretch that vocal out to where it can sound like the size of it is going from 50L to 50R. The imager you use will dictate how wide you can notice the differences. We can use a Sonitus Phase plug or a Waves S-1 to handle this. However, a PSP Stereo Enhancement plug will do something completely different to the vocal in question. It depends what you use and what effects you have before it. You can process on the vocal track itself or use a bus if you want.
 
We could also use a HAAS effect on instruments and then run another instance reversing the HAAS to the other side for some cool effects. There are so many ways you can do this stuff, it's insane really. But once you create the texture, you have to know how to control it or you get a mix full of thick mud that doesn't have any impact.
 
The same with back up vocals. In the diagram, we are looking at two stacks of vocals that were sent to an instrument bus. One stack was panned 40%L, the other 40%R. Once in the instrument bus, we can process effects on them as an entity and literally make them sound like they are stretching out to the 60% L/R pan field. This also fills up the space in between and we are not walking over top of anything.
 
Let's revert back to the support guitars that are panned at 60L/R. We have choices here to where we can create a room sim, compress it and then control how that room sim spreads on those guitars. In this example we want those guitars to go from 60 to 85 and stop right where the main guitars are hitting. We want the main guitars to spread from 85 to 100 so we are filling up the space and leaving no gaps. This is how modern sounding stuff fills out the spectrum.
 
Our back up vocals stop right where those support guitars stop and if we have to slightly pan our effects spread to 55 instead of 60, we can do that if we notice anything walking on top.
 
Your next question may be "why don't you use any wide pans Danny?" The reason being, I like to keep them for special effects that leap out to a listener. When you hit them with a wide pan, it sticks out because we haven't used it to the extreme anywhere. This is great for vocal effects, special processing effects and anything else that you need to fly in as an impact type of thing. To me, when people hard pan, it can fatigue a listening experience as well as sound too disconnected. It only sounds good in headphones and usually sounds too separated in real monitors or in a car.
 
There are no rules of course, but these are the things I have followed that allow me to keep everything in check. If you want tight mixes with impact, keep your pans tighter. If you want a disconnected Beatles mix, pan everything to the extreme. I love the Beatles but I was not down with some of their decisions regardless of how famous they are. I can throw up listening to a drum kit that is hard panned for the sake of being hard panned. But that's just me....no one else has to think, act or engineer as I do.
 
A note about thick/big sounds: The imaging stuff can be useful for lots of things. But make no mistake, nothing touches a sound that is recorded "big". We can simulate, stretch, widen, enhance, it is not the same as purposely recording a big sound. To do that, you need a big sound to begin with, several mics, a good room and the know-how to pull it all together. In most home studios, people don't have this luxury so they are left with imagers and the like. You just have to stay focused and not over-use any of this stuff because you can disconnect the mix, add artifacts and bring on synthetic phasing that just sounds bad. So just be careful...and whatever you do, don't etch ANY decisions using imaging in stone while listening on headphones. I don't care how good they are or who recommended them....don't do it man. It won't be a very nice outcome.
 
Anyway, I hope some of this helps you Matt as well as others who may be reading my long winded posts. These are some of the things I teach here that keep people coming back for more. I also apply everything I talk about to my own mixes at all times and have made a really good business with this stuff. If it doesn't work for you or anyone else, my sincere apologies. But it has worked for me and I felt it was worth sharing to the extent in which I have. Thanks for reading. :)
 
-Danny
2012/05/28 10:31:30
foxwolfen
Danny Danzi


foxwolfen


Danny, one of the virtues taught to us in university was a concept called succinctness. I think you give some great advice, but bro, I just cant wade through all you write.  

So, perhaps you addressed this already, and if you did, I apologize, but... Reverb is perhaps THE  most critical part of a mix, whether you use a little or a lot. Reverb defines our world. Reverb is how we judge space and depth. Reverb should be the single most important thought in an engineer's mind. Reverb also defines many other aspects of music other than space... it defines style, it defines generation.

With a well recorded source, you can do with out EQ, without compression.... but no reverb (which includes the sound of the recording environment) and the mix will be flat and lifeless... always.

Just my 2C
Shad

With all due respect Shad, the difference between your posts in this field and my long posts (if you someday bother to read them) is you leave someone that is in need in this field, still in need. You talk of reverb but do not explain ANYTHING about it. If you read the op's question, and then his reply comment to me, he literally asked me questions. I answered them, provided scenarios as well as a technique and what has worked for me. The post is long but the post is thorough and accurate while sharing a bit of my personality in it as I write. It's quite alright that it may not be to your liking or may be too long. It wasn't intended for you if you take that stance and I don't mean any of this with any hostility. But there are those who want to learn and to learn, we must share.
 
If people want to learn about this stuff and enjoy a read, this is why I post here. One line answers will not answer most questions due to the infinite possibilities in this field. I offer some of those possibilities up for the price of logging in. To help, inspire and share things that have worked both in my world and the worlds of others. If succinctness is all you care about in a field that has so many variables it can blow a persons head off and totally lose those that are new in this field, then you are the man they should be listening to instead of me. Please continue to share.
 
You also need to re-read Jon's post without any hostility because it was spot on. We live in a world of samples, beats, grooves and simulations that need no reverb to make a mix sound good. And also, the man that buys into something not needing any eq at all....is the man that needs to post mixes of this brilliance to claim such a thing while teaching us exactly how these mixes were achieved if they really want to teach and hold some credibility here. It's not easy to capture a sound that may need little eq vs a sound that needs lots of eq. You gotta either use a sample or know what you are doing to achieve these "no eq" results. Trying to convey that to someone in search of answers without explaining it in depth does them an injustice.
 
That said, I will peacefully disagree with the comment about reverb being as important as you have made it out to be. To focus on, or claim reverb is the most important factor in mixing = a bad final result and a cover-up masking the truth in verb. I'll take a well eq'd mix with all the right stuff without any verb before I'll even waste any time messing with reverb or holding it in as high a regard as you have. It's icing on the cake, not a necessity. But that's just me.
 
-Danny

Danny, I stand by what I said. You can selectively (as Jon likes to do) discount parts of what I said to reinforce your position all you want, it does change the facts of what I said.


The OP asked if the three most important aspects of a good mix were EQ, Compression, and Reverb as a WHOLE (his emphasis, not mine). The answer is yes. I clearly stated why reverb was important. I do not need to write a book here about it. The information is very easily found if people want to learn about how our ears work. 


As you yourself state, you like a "dry mix" (which actually means "unprocessed", including EQ by the way. Don't take my word for it, look it up). That is fine. I am not saying it's wrong. I am also not discounting the value of EQ and compression. But, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people mixing music here in THIS forum are also recording it. I was pointing out why reverb is a factor in the mix, whether we like it or not. We control reverb, not eliminate it, be it natural or artificial. It is something that must be understood. And thats what somebody who is inexperienced and wants to learn should be taking away from this.
2012/05/28 10:32:03
Danny Danzi
Herb Danny should really consider writing a book with his knowledge and ability to write on subjects in depth, explaining things


trimph What I'd love to see is a weekly posting from Danny about certain aspects of recording...he does have a book in him!!


Hahaha you guys are too kind..ty. :) I do sort of have an e-book in the works but just for my own head as well as my students as a hand-book so to speak. You guys would be sick of me if I posted more novels! LOL! Trust me, I wish there was a shorter easy way to explain this stuff. The only other way to explain it is by voice and if I started posting up sound clips, it would be pure comedy once you heard my accent. There would be nothing more to read though. LOL!!

I write a column for Wusik online that you might enjoy and there are quite a few pieces on my own forum that may keep you busy. Some you may have read since I've shared some of our conversations here, others I'm sure you may not have seen. I'll try to share a little more here as long as I know people are interested. :)

-Danny
2012/05/28 10:45:10
Danny Danzi
foxwolfen


Danny Danzi


foxwolfen


Danny, one of the virtues taught to us in university was a concept called succinctness. I think you give some great advice, but bro, I just cant wade through all you write.  

So, perhaps you addressed this already, and if you did, I apologize, but... Reverb is perhaps THE  most critical part of a mix, whether you use a little or a lot. Reverb defines our world. Reverb is how we judge space and depth. Reverb should be the single most important thought in an engineer's mind. Reverb also defines many other aspects of music other than space... it defines style, it defines generation.

With a well recorded source, you can do with out EQ, without compression.... but no reverb (which includes the sound of the recording environment) and the mix will be flat and lifeless... always.

Just my 2C
Shad

With all due respect Shad, the difference between your posts in this field and my long posts (if you someday bother to read them) is you leave someone that is in need in this field, still in need. You talk of reverb but do not explain ANYTHING about it. If you read the op's question, and then his reply comment to me, he literally asked me questions. I answered them, provided scenarios as well as a technique and what has worked for me. The post is long but the post is thorough and accurate while sharing a bit of my personality in it as I write. It's quite alright that it may not be to your liking or may be too long. It wasn't intended for you if you take that stance and I don't mean any of this with any hostility. But there are those who want to learn and to learn, we must share.

If people want to learn about this stuff and enjoy a read, this is why I post here. One line answers will not answer most questions due to the infinite possibilities in this field. I offer some of those possibilities up for the price of logging in. To help, inspire and share things that have worked both in my world and the worlds of others. If succinctness is all you care about in a field that has so many variables it can blow a persons head off and totally lose those that are new in this field, then you are the man they should be listening to instead of me. Please continue to share.

You also need to re-read Jon's post without any hostility because it was spot on. We live in a world of samples, beats, grooves and simulations that need no reverb to make a mix sound good. And also, the man that buys into something not needing any eq at all....is the man that needs to post mixes of this brilliance to claim such a thing while teaching us exactly how these mixes were achieved if they really want to teach and hold some credibility here. It's not easy to capture a sound that may need little eq vs a sound that needs lots of eq. You gotta either use a sample or know what you are doing to achieve these "no eq" results. Trying to convey that to someone in search of answers without explaining it in depth does them an injustice.

That said, I will peacefully disagree with the comment about reverb being as important as you have made it out to be. To focus on, or claim reverb is the most important factor in mixing = a bad final result and a cover-up masking the truth in verb. I'll take a well eq'd mix with all the right stuff without any verb before I'll even waste any time messing with reverb or holding it in as high a regard as you have. It's icing on the cake, not a necessity. But that's just me.

-Danny

Danny, I stand by what I said. You can selectively (as Jon likes to do) discount parts of what I said to reinforce your position all you want, it does change the facts of what I said.


The OP asked if the three most important aspects of a good mix were EQ, Compression, and Reverb as a WHOLE (his emphasis, not mine). The answer is yes. I clearly stated why reverb was important. I do not need to write a book here about it. The information is very easily found if people want to learn about how our ears work. 


As you yourself state, you like a "dry mix" (which actually means "unprocessed", including EQ by the way. Don't take my word for it, look it up). That is fine. I am not saying it's wrong. I am also not discounting the value of EQ and compression. But, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people mixing music here in THIS forum are also recording it. I was pointing out why reverb is a factor in the mix, whether we like it or not. We control reverb, not eliminate it, be it natural or artificial. It is something that must be understood. And thats what somebody who is inexperienced and wants to learn should be taking away from this.

I'm not discounting anything Shad nor am I trying to be controversial with you. I'm simply stating that reverb is not something someone should hold as high a priority as you are making it out to be. Listen to your own creations man. They are mostly sampled sounds and synth type arrangments (which are quite good by the way!) that really don't require reverb to sound good in a mix. You can't confuse enhancement with necessity.
 
How many of those sounds are you mic'ing? Even if you mic'd a sound, the room in that sound is going to give it a personality. With samples, some are VERY direct and raw. Verb can play a role in how they are enhanced and it WILL make an incredible difference. Some have effects on them purposely out of the box...therefore, someone can literally use them as is. 
 
But if you were mic'ing your drums, your guitars, and anything else....you would notice that reverb is icing on the cake...not something anyone trying to achieve a solid mix should worry about or think of as "necessity" or the number one priority in the mixing realm. I would also be willing to bet that you may be the only engineer that feels this way....and that's quite ok really.
 
You also have to keep in mind...you said "reverb". You didn't say "sound space via mic's". Totally different animal there really when you are creating your own sounds over using sampled sounds, wouldn't you say?
 
I just think your placement of where you've put reverb as a priority is well...a bit like putting the horse after the carriage. But hey man, whatever works for you is what you should use. It's just not something I'd ever press to anyone, that's all.
 
In my realm, verb enhances....it doesn't dictate. With dry, raw sounds, it can make them come to life and make a dry, in your face and raw sound, have a personality. But that mix should STILL be able to stand on it's own without reverb. You know how to mix...some do not. So throwing reverb into the equasion could really be a problem for people at an early stage of the game, wouldn't you agree? This is all I'm trying to convey.
 
-Danny
2012/05/28 10:56:31
guitartrek
Matt - It looks like an interesting approach.  I don't do anything like that now on paper.  At first I didn't get it, but now I see it.   It's a panning diagram right?  The kick and bass are totally centered and not spread at all, thus they are at the bottom of the triangle.  Vocals are in the middle but a little more spread?  Rhythm guitar is spread but not out to the very edges.  That's a great way of planning things out.    I'm paying much more attention to panning these days. 
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