How can the differences be 'dramatic', but only with $10,000 monitors AND brilliant ears. I wouldn't call that 'dramatic'.... Maybe 'subtle' would be a more appropriate term?... I assume were are talking 320 kbps VS wav here.

FLAC and other lossless formats do a much better job, but nothing compares to a raw wave.

Erm, except FLAC IS bit for bit the exact same WAV at playback time.

If you take into account any tool specific metadata in the file header and do a there and back conversion you'll end up with the exact same WAV data.  FLAC is just using a real-time de-compression codec to arrive at the same result, think of it as a playable 'zip' file if you like.

The clue is in the term 'lossless'...

It doesn't mean, fairly lossless, reasonably lossless or not lossless enough for Shad's golden ears, it means LOSSLESS.

A paradox, the OP loses no credibility at all for being honest enough, along with several others here to state the limitations of their own ears, yet Shad loses ALL credibility for claiming 'dramatic' differences even where they don't actually exist.  Go figure.

I guess it provides a good example why the OP was reluctant to mention it, because there's always someone around to claim super-human powers and thus some kind of imagined superiority it provides them with.  Lots of good stuff mentioned here aside from that though.

HTH

jonbouy: you always seem to be trying to pick a fight with shad. If you don't like him, can't you just ignore him? 

You do the same with Mike McCue and bitflipper. It's tiresome.

Seems to not make a difference to my ears...but then...working in a foundry for 13 years and being in a touring band just might have something to do with that.....

backwoods


jonbouy: you always seem to be trying to pick a fight with shad. If you don't like him, can't you just ignore him? 

You do the same with Mike McCue and bitflipper. It's tiresome.

But I like both McQ and Bitflipper...they are great characters, as far as normally accurate sources of information they are in a different league also. I'd like to think both of those guys would come to my aid if I was found to be talking from my rear-end with such clarity.

I'll often shoot at a duff message though, so if you find that tiresome just block me, I don't mind, I just can't seem to help it.

Was there anything I said that was wrong here?  I'll gladly change it if I'm mistaken.  I'll always welcome a PM if you have a problem with my approach that you want to discuss to keep if from clouding up yet another reasonble discussion.

There's no need to pick a fight with Shad anyway, just give him enough time and he'll eventually melt down and make things unbearable enough for himself to take another time out and blame it all on his cruel luck.  I've been watching him complete the same cyclic pattern since 2005.  It never changes except this time I can't be bothered with it.

HTH

Always go to the highest bit rate you can with MP3.... (320kbs) and you should be fine.

Hearing the problems in MP3 will be more evident at teh lower end of the scale 128kbs.... for example. 

On a good playback system it will sound like crap. 

Never use mp3's even at the 320kbs rate in a final mix that will end up as a wave...... unless there is no other options.  Always get the waves. 

I work a lot across the internet and use mp3's because they are smaller and can be attached to emails. but for the final mix... it has to be 100% wave files. 

It's when you take the MP3 track mixed out to a wave.... as in exporting from Sonar, and then reconvert to MP3 again to post online that you are now reducing something that has already been reduced one time before.... not a good scenario. 

I've asked this before and never got an answer .... maybe someone here can chime in ...

I don't dither when I export my projects. For example, I'll take a 96kHz/24bit .wav and make a 320k MP3.

I've never seen an option when making an MP3 for dithering.

Does anyone know if MP3 codecs apply dithering when you convert .wav's higher than 44.1kHz/16bit or what exactly happens?

Thanks,

Bub

Bub


I've asked this before and never got an answer .... maybe someone here can chime in ...

I don't dither when I export my projects. For example, I'll take a 96kHz/24bit .wav and make a 320k MP3.

I've never seen an option when making an MP3 for dithering.

Does anyone know if MP3 codecs apply dithering when you convert .wav's higher than 44.1kHz/16bit or what exactly happens?

Thanks,

Bub

I always export and dither down to a 16 bit wav from the DAW if it is going to end up as an mp3.  I never do it any other way.

It will depend to some degree what front end to the decoder you are using that will dictate what happens during conversion which is why I do it myself at the exporting from the DAW phase.  Then it's just a case of giving the codec the instructions required to make the mp3 from that.

I usually use Audacity to trim any white space from the front and end and set up the encoder there to convert from the 16 bit wav to whatever bit rate mp3 I want.  I've just got into that routine but there are plenty of different ways you can go about it.

I'm not even too sure if dithering is even worthwhile when held up against what happens during the conversion process, but I guess it's good practice to dither when changing down from one bit depth to another.

Try a listening test between different dither algo's if you really want to give your ears a good workout between what you can and can't hear...

Thank you Backwoods. But not to worry, I stopped taking Jon seriously years ago (and I will confess, I do bait him ). As for my response to Jon's valid point - transcoding error (and no I am not saying those will be noticed, but that was my point about RAW wave - its the pure source). As for my ears... they are damn good. Its about the only thing I am good at. I do not claim to be a great musician, a great drummer, a great songwriter, great recording engineer, but I do have a damn good ear. My ears actually prompted one music teacher to want to work with me even though I could not pay. It may just be that I love to listen. I love sound (except construction noise when I am trying to sleep ). (Edit for typo)

Bub


I've asked this before and never got an answer .... maybe someone here can chime in ...

I don't dither when I export my projects. For example, I'll take a 96kHz/24bit .wav and make a 320k MP3.

I've never seen an option when making an MP3 for dithering.

Does anyone know if MP3 codecs apply dithering when you convert .wav's higher than 44.1kHz/16bit or what exactly happens?

Thanks,

Bub

Internally MP3's don't really have "bit depth" in the sense of uncompressed audio. The MP3 codec will work using floating point, so there's nothing really to dither to.

"Exactly what happens" is a rather complicated and very technical process.