Ok what I am amazed at is that nobody has got the fact we are talking about two different recording methods:
 
Jeff was talking about recording on an SSL console (presumably fed into a Pro Tools rig) and I was talking about our 8 in/out boxes.
 
These are two entirely deferent recording methods and need two different ways to record.  Whilst presumably we get all our saturation from the console if we are going Jeffs way, we, if we are using our pre amps on our boxes get 3rd level harmonic distortion from our transistor based pre amps.  So driving these pre amps a little hot is and should produce some third level harmonic distortion, Jeff has admitted that himself.  This MrT could be called digital warmth!!!, it's an odd harmonic, I will have to look up my theory on this and digital warmth may not be the right term.  But here you go third level harmonic distortion does exist when you have transistor based pre amps and who knows what happens when you hit analogue side of the converter.
 
Don't forget MrT that driven transistor based electronics produce 3rd level harmonic distortion, this is fact.   If you like I can explain that the most sought after sound in the history of Rock and Pop is the transistor based amp, in this case The Vox, this is heavily driven.  It is miced up with normally a tube based microphone, which was normally a U87 Neumann, this was then fed into a custom built Redd tube console, in Abbey Road studios.  They changed this console just before the album Abbey Road.  There is a massive difference in sound between The White Album and Abbey Road because there is more third level harmonic distortion going on than previous Beatle albums. See what you are getting is 3rd level harmonic disttortion from the amp, and 2nd level harmonic distrotion from the microphone and the tube based console, this changes to more third level harmonic distortion when the redd console goes transistor based at the the time of Abbey Road. 
 
I have a Eureka Pre-Amp (which is FET based) and I use this differently and treat it differently when I record with this and it's more akin to Jeffs way because it is a channel strip just as in a normal console.
 
I try and find the sweet spot in the Eureka Pre amp and then use the gain staging to set my levels into Sonar, once again around the -6db peak mark.
 
Man all this bickering and not one boffin was able to differentiate the difference of technique needed to record through a console and through our little black boxes.
 
It just shows how elitist some members are in this particular corner of the forum, most who frequent this forum use little black boxes to record and not one boffin understands that two techniques are needed to record to the two different input mediums.  Let alone an understanding of harmonic distortion; how important it is from an artistic perspective and most of the greatest recordings are just that because they understood how to use harmonic content to make records shine, whether that be 2nd or 3rd.
 
My greatest enemy was even impressed with my understanding of what was going on with the electronics (whether that was microphones, amps, consoles and how if we mixed it together properly majik) and how it was the harmonic content that made those records special.
 
Neb 

 

I would think there is a world of difference between overdriving a vox guitar amp and distorting a $5 transistor preamp on everything.

But yea, Neb, you are right.  Can we please stop talking about it now?

@

Ben, if you give me the VOX amp model I can give you some details on the circuit and sound. The Super Beatle is the only SS amp from Vox that I liked. Have to admit I've only listened to a few SS amps. I have a massive VOX reference manual with minute details.

AT


I would think there is a world of difference between overdriving a vox guitar amp and distorting a $5 transistor preamp on everything.

But yea, Neb, you are right.  Can we please stop talking about it now?

@

What I am I suppose to say to that?? I've brought up some more interesting point's, something I'd even forgotton about until this converstion.
 
Arn't you interested in this idea of harmonic content being the back bone of recording and it is perhaps a lost art and that is why digital is so bland.
 
Eveybody thinks I'm on some sort of crsuade and I am little bit, but only on people who can't think outside the box and are being a little eltist in their advice.
 
As I have stated most here use 8 in/out boxes not SSL consoles so it only stands to reason, they're two ways or two formulas when recording into our digtal input devices.
 
As I said, I only realized this fact this morning when I sat down and went Ah ha, this is where we are going wrong and perhaps were the whole audio/audio teaching thing is going wrong.
 
There is actually two ways to record digital, there is the console route and there is the 8 in/out box.
 
And I disagree with you about overdriving certain audio interface transitor based pre amps, Presonus actually do some very pre amps on their Firewire boxes, hell they even have tube inputs on one their boxes.
 
So the harmnic content is alll in the ears of the beholder.
 
But if you want to stop talking about, we can, 
 
Neb
 

Ben  has misunderstood me. When I refer to a DAW adding very little harmonic distortion I am referring to a situation where no saturation of any sort is being applied to the analog signal while it is still in the analog path. ie the Mic Pre, any line level analog electronics that may be between Mic pre and Audio interface is also of pristine quality as well. As Paul Frindle even said himself once you start distorting things prior to any A to D conversion all bets are off.

I am also referring to my digital mxier which also has very low distortion Mic Pres and if I plug a microphone or analog signal into that it is treated in the lowest distortion manner possible and converted straight to digital. (BTW my Yamaha digital mixer does not have a sweet spot in it's Mic Pres, it sounds the same at almost any gain.)

I have already mentioned this in a previous post and this is the situation that I am saying a DAW is introducing very little harmonic distortion.

There are no different methods to recording digitally. Once a signal meets the A to D converter of your audio interface it is all the same from that point on. What may vary is what happens prior to that.

ampfixer


Ben, if you give me the VOX amp model I can give you some details on the circuit and sound. The Super Beatle is the only SS amp from Vox that I liked. Have to admit I've only listened to a few SS amps. I have a massive VOX reference manual with minute details.

What I am talking about and I forgot all about this until this morning, and I did a fair amout of reasearch in this was this idea of combining harmonic content.
 
I was just using the vox as an example, we can make our digtal recoding so much better by understanding how to mix our harmonic content properly and this includes 5cent transitor preamps, lets not forget those 5cent transistor preamps are and correct me if I am wrong probably better than anything that The Beatles had.
 
Why I mentioned the Vox, was it was transistor, into tube, into tube.  This was a majik combanation and formula for a certain harmonic sound that was there in those recordings.
 
By understanding this we can change the way we record and understand digital and in particular how we record into our little black boxes.
 
Actually The Beatles used lots of amps over their career, but it's the understanding of this idea of harmonic content that we have lost.
 
Now I remember and know what I am talking about!!
 
Neb

Kill it with fire!!!

Jeff Evans


Ben has misunderstood me. When I refer to a DAW adding very little harmonic distortion I am referring to a situation where no saturation of any sort is being applied to the analog signal while it is still in the analog path. ie the Mic Pre, any line level analog electronics that may be between Mic pre and Audio interface is also of pristine quality as well. As Paul Frindle even said himself once you start distorting things prior to any A to D conversion all bets are off.

I am also referring to my digital mxier which also has very low distortion Mic Pres and if I plug a microphone or analog signal into that it is treated in the lowest distortion manner possible and converted straight to digital. (BTW my Yamaha digital mixer does not have a sweet spot in it's Mic Pres, it sounds the same at almost any gain.)

I have already mentioned this in a previous post and this is the situation that I am saying a DAW is introducing very little harmonic distortion.

There are no different methods to recording digitally. Once a signal meets the A to D converter of your audio interface it is all the same from that point on. What may vary is what happens prior to that.

All hail its the Pontif, but that is what I am saying, I've worked out my idea now and remember what I am talking about, you know me I always explain this arse over head.
 
By the sounds of things your digital mixer is the problem Yuck, this is the whole problem with digital, we have made everything so perfect that the elites think that any low level distortion is bad or harmonic content is bad. I mean imagine working with a device that has no sweet spot, it's like going back in time to the realists painters. Rembrant anybody.
 
No the best records always had low level harmoinc content introduced by imperfect circutry, here is a experiment for anyone who has the tools, use a tube microphone and a cheap transistor preamp. Push it to the levels I have sugested.
 
Now use a transistor microphone and that same cheap transitor preamp and record it softly, then turn it back up so the levels match the previous tube/transistor recording. Now tell me if you can hear any difference??
 
I'd do it myself but I don't have a tube microphone and X1 one is off line.
 
But I will do my own experiment involving my FET preamp and transitor microphone and transitor, transitor once I am up and running and publish the results.
 
It's the harmocic content stupid (me that is)
 
Neb

Holy F*@King Sh!t Dude  LET IT GO!  3 threads is more than enough of this non-stop crap just to ruffle feathers.
 Listen You track how you want, I'll do it how I want, and each reader can do the very same thing!  WHATEVER YOU LIKE!  HOWEVER YOU LIKE TO DO IT.