Hey Guys, I guess I was n't being clear in my statement.  I  meant that whether played on an acoustic kit or an E Kit, a real drummer using sticks, to my ears gives the drums a realism that I can not get using a key board or by programming.  It is in the subtleties of the cymbals and hats that seem to be the hardest to fake by programming. 

I have a drummer friend that I grew up with back in Minnesota; he is absolutely awsome.  Used to drum to Rush songs, beat for beat when he was in his 20's.  He recently started up a Journey tribute band (Atlantis)and is touring again.  The band went in to cut a demo in a studio and he played his prized kit that he has built all of these years.  When the demo was done, his band did not like the drum sounds they had.  He was really hurt by this and then asked them to  bring in something recorded that they liked, so he could hear an example of what they were looking for.  The lead singer brought in some beats that were done using midi samples.  Chuck basically said, I give up and switched  over to that 20K Yamaha E Kit and has not looked  back. 

Danny, I have heard that it has really become almost the norm to enhance a recorded acoustic kit with samples.  We have become acoustomed now to hearing enhanced kicks and snares especially.  It always seemed to me that the cymbals were lacking in realness a few years ago, but they are really pretty good now.

Even with the basic EZD kit, I have had many musicians listen to my songs and they have been surprised when I tell them that they are programed midi drums.  Of course, Chuck, my pro drummer buddy from MN, always spots them immediately. 

Danny - You're right!  Someone finally did it with Guitar.  That was truly amazing.  Seems like they've got a lot of nuances programmed in with different articulations being triggered just like the orchestral packages.  One thing for sure - it will never look as cool to the play the keyboards playing guitar than a guitarist playing guitar.  What's left?  The human voice?  or has someone conquered that too...

MakeShift - then we're in agreement - the feel comes from the human, but Virtual instruments can save a ton of time and money on mic's, not to mention the ability to change arrangments / tempos / fills / beats after the fact.

Danny:

YIKES!! That is really close....wow!!! It would make it easier for someone I know who has severe shoulder issues as well...great find!!

MakeShift


Hey Guys, I guess I was n't being clear in my statement.  I  meant that whether played on an acoustic kit or an E Kit, a real drummer using sticks, to my ears gives the drums a realism that I can not get using a key board or by programming.  It is in the subtleties of the cymbals and hats that seem to be the hardest to fake by programming. 

I have a drummer friend that I grew up with back in Minnesota; he is absolutely awsome.  Used to drum to Rush songs, beat for beat when he was in his 20's.  He recently started up a Journey tribute band (Atlantis)and is touring again.  The band went in to cut a demo in a studio and he played his prized kit that he has built all of these years.  When the demo was done, his band did not like the drum sounds they had.  He was really hurt by this and then asked them to  bring in something recorded that they liked, so he could hear an example of what they were looking for.  The lead singer brought in some beats that were done using midi samples.  Chuck basically said, I give up and switched  over to that 20K Yamaha E Kit and has not looked  back. 

Danny, I have heard that it has really become almost the norm to enhance a recorded acoustic kit with samples.  We have become acoustomed now to hearing enhanced kicks and snares especially.  It always seemed to me that the cymbals were lacking in realness a few years ago, but they are really pretty good now.

Even with the basic EZD kit, I have had many musicians listen to my songs and they have been surprised when I tell them that they are programed midi drums.  Of course, Chuck, my pro drummer buddy from MN, always spots them immediately. 

Got ya Mike. Sorry if I misunderstood you. Yeah, the sticks with good pads that put out the right pulses/velocities will definitely win out most times over programming. Some people are insane programmers though that pay such attention to detail, it can blow your mind. I have a few friends that frequent guitarwar.com that take weeks to program their drums. When they are done, (as long as they use a cool enough drum module) they sound so real, it's not even worth trying to pick them apart. As for the cymbals...short story for you man.
 
I bought the first V Drums kit years ago. I hated the cymbals so I used my real cymbals and mic'd them up. The problem there was, the mesh heads were not musical sounding at all and when they bled through the cymbal mic's, there was always this weird sound in the back ground. You can't gate cymbals out too well either because they need so much ring and sustain. So I was stuck with this weird sound in the back that drove me crazy.
 
So, I decided to get rid of all the mesh pads and traded them in for the hard rubber pads. This solved the problem completely and I was happy. About 2 weeks later, Roland released this expansion card for my drum brain that made the cymabs sound so realistic, I was kicking myself for getting rid of the mesh pads. LOL!! I stuck with the hard rubber pads but bought the bigger ones and now I have the multi-trigger cymbals that are really incredible. Chokes and expression...bell, edge, a really nice addition. The samples for all drums are pretty insane these days too. They have totally eliminated that robot sound when you do fast fills as long as you get a drum module that has lots of hit possibilities in it. The only thing I'm still not down with is double kicks and the reason is, when you go super fast, it's still the same drum tuning. So what I do now is I load up another kick with a different tuning and just send the midi kicks to that drum. This way when you do the insane doubles, it sounds more like two kicks instead of a single kick with a double pedal. :)
 
Geno & trimph: Pretty crazy guitar stuff, isn't it? I was pretty blown away by that when I heard it. What's impressive is the tones and all the little nuances. Like, they didn't miss a trick. It's definitely the most realistic guitar for midi that I've ever heard. Even the cleans and some of the jazz stuff impressed the heck out of me. Though it kinda makes me sad that I can be replaced in a sense...lol....it's only fair that people that may not be able to play guitar or afford to hire a guitarist, have a tool like this for their music. :)
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi

MakeShift


Though I  agree with  both Guitartrek and Trimph1 about the great virtual instruments and the ability to have a incredible studio for a lot less of the dollars it took 40 years ago, I still think that those 2 items actually seperate the small home studio from the big boys.  I think one of the major areas that we lack in the home studio is still the great selection of quality mics and a great tracking environment.  Too me, 3/4 of the battle is in tracking.

All of the virtual drums have become incredibly great sounding programs that can almost replace the real thing to the average listener.  However, nothing still captures realistic drums like a real drummer.  Its a little to me like the virtual guitar programs, they are getting really good, but they don't have the touch and feel of the real thing.

Mike: A few things I wanted to share with you about this if I may? Your first paragraph is spot on man. The big studios have the quality they have due to quite a few things. The right rooms, the right mic's, knowing sound, good engineers and the key thing that most people forget, a producer. That there holds lots of weight and you're right, 3/4 is tracking not only to you, but to me and most others. At the end of the day, when something is tracked right, you shouldn't have to carve it up like a Thanksgiving turkey to make it work. Subtle things here and there. That's when you know you're getting this stuff down man.
 
Now, on your second paragraph...this is where I want to share a few things. When you mention the drums...I can give you a clip of me playing my real kit, then me playing my V Drums into a sample....if I asked you which was real and which was fake....well, I can't speak for your ears...but I honestly can't tell on this end. It depends what module you use and how you make them all work. To me, drum programming will always sound a little stale unless the person has the talents Jonbuoy does. He's done some really impressive programming that would take me weeks to do. I thank God every day I record a drum track, that He gave me the gift to play them. I've programmed drums 2 times in my life. The first time, I had a blast. The second time...I was so frustrated I went out and bought an E kit. LOL! Never again man! But if you have a cat that plays an e kit and they are dialed in right with the pad to midi interface so the pads are putting out realistic pulses, it's the same feel a drummer gets on a real kit...honest. Especially with these incredible drum programs we have like the NI stuff, BFD 2, Superior etc.
 
Now, one of things people also don't know because this is a behind the scenes thing...90% of the drums you hear on commercial recordings have samples in them. Just about no one but blues or jazz bands use real kits out of the box. Rock, pop, metal, country, all use real drums, but they either run midi triggers as a safety net and hybrid or run programs like Drumagog or Beat Detective at all times. Some are programmed in, some are resampled, some are hybrids. But they always exist.
 
Now, this is for you and Geno. I've always been against the fake guitar thing. No one has it right...umm...or do they? Do this for me in order...it's going to blow your mind.
 
If I posted this up and told you this was an instrumental of mine, you'd believe me right? Just click it and don't read the tags or anything. Assume your listening to me play here and we're not having this discussion and I just wanted you to check out a guitar tune of mine. Click this link and don't read any further until you've listened to this until you've had enough or listened to the entire thing. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Another_World.mp3
 
Ok, now you've heard it. What if I told you not a single guitar in that was real and it was all triggered via keyboard? If I didn't tell you that, after hearing this monster piece (which isn't me) you'd have no reason to doubt me, right? It's all fake...done on boards.
 
Now, check this out...here is what they used to do it. If you do not watch this video and see it being performed on a keyboard, it fools you. If you watch it though, your perception changes. LOL!
 
(Click Underwater World vid) http://www.prominy.com/demo/SC/video/Underwater_World.html
 
Check out some of the other demos...this thing is sick! And I feel my job is now in jeopardy. These tones are so incredible, you'd be spending years getting them in real life. Someone finally has it as down as it's going to be in my opinion. so now they even have guitar down to the point of being so close, even trained ears may not know if they don't see it or they weren't told what was used. Scary stuff! :)
 
-Danny

Jesus Danny - that keyboard programming/playing is the sickest thing I've seen for a few years!


I see what you mean about feeling redundant - my guitar-ing self esteem isn't exactly at an all time high - that's just taken me aback totally.

I'm still going with the real guitar thing...and this virtual thing. Best of both worlds...

Good quality mics are now cheaper and therefore accessible to younger people- it's easier and easier to make good sounding records.

But I sometimes think youngsters have latched onto the idea that everything has been done already within the constraints of the pop song and so "why innovate?". There are an awful lot of loops/mashups around. Why? People know that their efforts are going to be forgotten within 10 minutes no matter how good- youtube puts up new material at a frightening rate- and you can't really make money out of it anymore. Sorry, I'm on a tangent...

One other little thing earlier in this thread about Jazz. Think about it. They are playing standards. Most of them are regurgiating scales ad naueseum. Most Jazz is actually crap even if it is wonderfully recording and whatever Jeff Evans has to say about it. Yes, there are a few guys with authentic creativity but most of them can't write a tune to save themselves. That's where the true creativity has always been - the songwriters- Ellington, Gershwin, Lennon, McCartney etc- not some dudes with fast chops who repeat themselves everynight for twenty years.

Summing up- Cheap Chinese Mic Knockoffs have allowed youngsters to create good quality recordings as long as they have the will to learn how to use them properly. 

People who assert that young people aren't being creative simply don't know what young people are creating. Go on, what music made by young people are you actually familiar with?

Jonesey: Yeah that thing is pretty sick isn't it? I was thinking of getting it just to have...but then it occured to me, "you dope...wouldn't it just be easier to pick up your guitar and play?!" LOL!

John T: I'm so with you on that. I've read in quite a few threads where the youngsters have really gotten a bad name. That said, there are a few that have sort of degraded music a bit. But, if you go on youtube and see some of the stuff they are coming up with, anf find the right stuff, mind-blowing is what I'd say to best describe it. Look at all the cool sampling type stuff that came about after KT Tunstall. Now we have several one lady/man bands as well as entire bands using this method. I think it's brilliant even if it isn't a persons cup of tea.

Then there are these kids doing these mash ups of cover tunes where they re-write them to sound completely different than the original....that's pretty cool too. There's this mad guitarist floating around on youtube that is like 17...he's redone every major song you can think of and orchestrated them all on guitar. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings etc. I just sat there in awe. I can't fathom how long it must have taken him to do these songs. And for a young cat to play guitar like that....I'd not want to meet up with him at a music store trying out amps...lol...he'll have people hanging off him and I'll be looking for my jaw on the floor.

Some really good singers out there too that just grab an acoustic and make you go "wow, if I was a label rep, I'd be signing someone new every day!" The young talent is definitely out there...and it's more innovative than ever utilizing the new technology that's been given to us. A person just has to know where to look for it. The problem is, as we get older, we sort of fall into what I call "mom and pop syndrome". Remember our parents telling us "you guys don't know what real music is!" Now that we are older and a bit set in our ways possibly, you look for a certain something that floats your boat.

But most times, you're stuck in a particular style and when you hear this newer stuff...if you don't embrace the new sound, you come away thinking "uggh, music is really going down the tubes" when in fact, they are doing some really cool stuff when we put our personal likes to the side. I don't like all of it, but there are some crafty lil buggers out there that have made me yell out "holy crap, that's spectacular!!?" many times. Or "you gotta be kidding me, why didn't I think of that?!" It's all in the way we keep ourselves open to the art when we hear some of these new masterpieces. If you're closed minded or a person that just loves classic rock or jazz that has tunnel vision, chances are that person may not ever be pleased unless someone does something in a genre they like. I actually love listening to these kids come up with this stuff. Even if some of them aren't what we die hard musicians would consider "musicians" they are still doing some really cool things we can borrow here and there. :) At least that's what MY personal experience has been with it.

-Danny

Danny Danzi

 Look at all the cool sampling type stuff that came about after KT Tunstall. Now we have several one lady/man bands as well as entire bands using this method.....

Here's an example of a young musician doing stuff I would never try to do, but she comes up with some cool sounds. I first heard of her here in the Songs forum.

Josie Charlwood