Hi there backwoods I don't know much about this guy so any info would be welcome.

Matt it is a good idea in fact to keep your rms levels on tracks even and consistent. It seems to aid the mixing process very well. You will never have problems with tracks being too low to mix either because you have tracked them correctly in the first place. Your busses and masterbuss will be perfect level wise and you will never see a clip light anywhere!

One thing that many of you have not taken into account is the ballistics of the VU meter. This is basically how it dances to the music.  A lot of very well mixed and mastered material seems to move them in a certain way, amateur productions tend to make them swing wildly in comparison. Interesting that because the reason they move well is because in the best studios they are present in the console usually and they are using them!

They are also fantastic for showing up a track that has something on it that is making the meter swing wildly. Easy to find in solo and correct often. No peak meter will tell you that information.

Also every mastering house on the planet basically has them (or another meter eg Dorrough to show a similar thing) Wonder why that is Backwoods!  If they are so bad and stupid then that would not be the case. Have you thought of that. So you have got a million studios and mastering houses around the world that has them but Paul says they are no good! He reminds me a bit of Ben I think.

"If they are so bad and stupid then that would not be the case. Have you thought of that. So you have got a million studios and mastering houses around the world that has them but Paul says they are no good! He reminds me a bit of Ben I think. "- Jeff Evans on Paul Frindle

Interview with Paul Frindle- yes, he was even a hotshot at SSL briefly Jeff:

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2010/01/interview-sound-legend-paul-frindle-and-a-story-behind-the-digital-audio-revolution/

Thanks backwoods for the link. I will check it out. Seems like he is an interesting guy. Does not mean what he says about VU's is true though, it's only his opinion remember that. I could point you to as many articles by as many equally experienced and even more knowledgable people than Paul that say VU's are in fact great! So who are you going to believe. I think it's good to see different sides to any approach and then take what you want from it and work in the way you are going to work. That is the real important issue. But at some point you have to leave the technical stuff behind and focus on the music.

That post that Ben put up here on this thread at the start is also way too long. I just can be bothered reading all of it and for what! It is not going to change how I engineer and produce music. I am doing it right because I can survive at it and my clients are always very happy.

But I must say I am a bit over detailed technical discussion on all these things. As I said in one of my recent posts to Ben it is all about the music and in the end one should really get down into that and spend most of your time in all that. If the music is boring no amount of technical jargon is going to make it better. But if the composition and the performance is great then you can almost record with anything in any way and you will get a great result. It transcends all the technical crap and by far.

If the music is boring no amount of technical jargon is going to make it better. But if the composition and the performance is great then you can almost record with anything in any way and you will get a great result. It transcends all the technical crap and by far.

 
Quote of the year there my friend...well said. That's my simple way of thinking about this stuff. I'm more wrong than I am right about stuff scientifically speaking, but what you said above is what I live by and it sure works for me.
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi

If the music is boring no amount of technical jargon is going to make it better. But if the composition and the performance is great then you can almost record with anything in any way and you will get a great result. It transcends all the technical crap and by far.

 
Quote of the year there my friend...well said. That's my simple way of thinking about this stuff. I'm more wrong than I am right about stuff scientifically speaking, but what you said above is what I live by and it sure works for me.
 
-Danny

+1

Your  funnny man Jeff, all you do here on the techniques forum is pontificate and when someone puts up imperical evidence you take your bat and ball and go home!!!

I wasn't going to bother, I've had my fun, we have learnt some stuff, what I found interesting and got me to post again is this comment:

One thing that many of you have not taken into account is the ballistics of the VU meter. This is basically how it dances to the music. A lot of very well mixed and mastered material seems to move them in a certain way, amateur productions tend to make them swing wildly in comparison. Interesting that because the reason they move well is because in the best studios they are present in the console usually and they are using them! Jeff Evans

Well for one Jeff, a VCA VU meter is going to move a lot faster, than an opto compressor Vu meter and this is the case with a FET compressor, oh the humanity.  So the VCA VU meter is going to dance pretty wildly as you put it.

Well I have had my fun, Jeff, MrT and a few others have told me t0 go away and poop, or put up and I put up, we have three or four compelling aguments and only gut intution to go by.

As I said 29 years to reach the pinicale of tape 34 years of digital and not one boffin has any clue!!!!, unless it's blue and Pro Tools!!! Ok I was just being silly with last remark.

Danny and Jeff they make such a lovley school yard chums, you can see them now, pulling the wings off fly's, burning ants with mangnifying glasses.

Yes Jeff has stated the obvious, which was my mantra way before his, he been to busy over here pontificating, the merits of VU meters, although KMeters are great but to sit there like some anal nerd and use them to check every channel, how much recording does Jeff actually get done on one session, I'd like to know!!!

Man funny stuff, some of us have learnt stuff but it's true and if we look at Jeffs avatar, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

And I still win because in Jeffs signature, I am talking about ideas, so by proxy I am one of those great minds.

Neb

Danny and Jeff they make such a lovley school yard chums, you can see them now, pulling the wings off fly's, burning ants with mangnifying glasses.

 
What's this Danny and Jeff stuff? You make it like I'm ganging up on you with Jeff. I've not made a mention of your name or quoted you in anything you have posted on this thread or any other thread. Jeff made a few comments that I agreed with. Is that so wrong? I didn't even question you or make a mention of stuff you said that I agree with or disagree with? Why must you always use my name like you're in some sort of competition with me? I don't bother anyone on here, why must you keep on messing with me?
 
Please don't involve my name with anyone. I work alone and speak for myself only. Stop humoring yourself with your infinite wisdom. You have none and your ban should have been permanent. Guys like you and the drama you bring to the table don't do these forums any good. If anything, you chase away the people that are truly trying to make a difference why you spout for the sake of a voice. Don't fk with me Ben...forget I exist and go about your business of whatever it is you do.
 
-Danny

That sounds like a threat Danny!!!

What have I done???

Apart from point out the obvious, you and Jeff are usually in clousion I and turn it into a joke, I ask again what have I done.

Now there will be some who agree with you ban me for life, some would disagree with you and I have seen many who have said welcome back.

It's true I am a divisive personality but I pull my weight around this forum, I have brought interesting topics to the table, I have brought interesting information to the table and again people have thanked me.

I have tried to help people with their X1 problems and particualy their wirless controllers, for which I am one of the few people who have had very few problems with these controllers.

I ask again Danny what I have I done, I mean your threat!! I could report that couldn't I but I don't because I can play with the big boys, even when I was banned I made no threats to get banned!!!

Your postulating only confirms my joke!!

Neb

Good point Ben about different types of VU meters. There are VU meters and then there are VU meters! Watch out using the VU's on your TL audio gear. They are not in the league of a serious expensive VU and also they are only showing you what is either coming or going from that particular piece of gear. They are not calibrated (to your DAW) either so they are not a lot of use.

I am talking fairly expensive to buy movements (that might set you back $200 each!) You can get them on ebay for less as I did. You also need decent electronics to drive them too and light them up! They need to be across the stereo buss usually. I use a digital mixer so it is easy to patch them in at various points in the signal flow.

I don't waste any time using them either. In fact they speed up the engineering process. When tracking it is just a simple operation to tweak incoming gain to get them to nicely peak just up to 0dB VU. It is easy to check busses to make sure your total sound arriving on a buss is also just hitting 0 dB VU. And finally on the masterbuss it is also a simple matter to fine tune everything for a great mix and that final mix is also just hitting 0dB VU. Not hard and quick!

The Klanghelm VST VU meters are pretty good and are an excellent solotuion for those who want to do any VU monitoring all inside your DAW. You can tweak the settings of those to move in a very similar way to an expensive real VU meter. Not quite as nice as the real deal but very good none the less.

Good point Ben about different types of VU meters. There are VU meters and then there are VU meters! Watch out using the VU's on your TL audio gear. They are not in the league of a serious expensive VU and also they are only showing you what is either coming or going from that particular piece of gear. They are not calibrated (to your DAW) either so they are not a lot of use.

Wrong again Jeff, if I remember we need to press the +10 button on the compressor and this normally calbibrates the meter to the digital realm and I only ever use the VU to see how much gain reduction I have, I understand the musicality of VU meters, just as good as you!!!

And because I tend to squash things by around -3db because I have already given myself headroom my A2 only grabs the peaks so the meter never dances wildly and it tends to be very musical, the EQ (the EQ on this device is the reall winnning story, just a smidge of bottom and top end, magnificent) and the dial in tube harmonic distortion make the A2 and excellent peice of kit.

Neb