I ask because I have always set up mics to record the whole band with intent to have them play together and make sure that the take we keep has a great drum track.  The rest can be redone if the scratch guitars or bass etc. was sloppy.  but the drums are the foundation I tend to build from.   I thought this was standard prcatice and seemed common sense to me but then I was on facebook and saw a post about a friends band in a studio with a pic of them laying "scratch guitars" and it said tomorrow we track the drums!   I was like huh???
 
Then I was watching this video over at GS:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showwiki.php?title=Video-Vault:Metallica-Drum-Recording-Techniques
 
It seems to me Lars was playing to the tracks of everything else that had already been laid down...?   Do I have it backwards?  Is this normal?
 
Thanks guys.  This one kinda threw me off and has me questioning my methods a bit.

I'll personally set out a scratch drum track (MIDI, perfect timing, non exciting) then lay over an in time scratch guitar track. Scratch vocals too. Usually bass as well. All just enough to be able to get the feel of the song. I'll then track drum properly. Then add bass. Then add all the main guitar and keys etc parts. Then add vox. Then harmonies. Then all the extra little fills etc and solos. Then mix.

That applies to my personal songs. I like to get the foundations down first and build the song up. I like to be singing to a pretty full song when I do vocals so I sing it effectivly, but my guitars will be tracked with scratch vocals in place already so I know where they need to sit in the mix when I record so there is still place for the vocals when I record them properly.

Given the time, I'd probably want to take a similar route with recording a full band (though I've only done this once - at least a band with a drummer that is).

Take into consideration the band's personal preferences too. They might really NEED to play together to sound good - especially if they have limited recording experience. If they are seasoned pros already, chances are they will be quite comfortable playing to headphones.

Also the ego of the band may also mean they want to do it one way, but you just know it's not going to work as good as it can that way. I guess you need to listen to what they want, but also learn to tell them what needs to happen for the greater good of the song, sometimes. Further more, sometimes you need to actually trick them for the best performance. For example, some singers get exceedingly nervous when you say "ok, I'm recording now, make this take perfect!". You can sometimes get away with the line "I'll just get you to sing the song through a few times as a bit of a warm up and so I can get all the levels right. I won't be recording so don't worry if you screw up." Then actually record it. Little tricks like this could be very useful.

I guess the first thing to decide is if you're playing to a click track, or playing freely. If you're going click, I'd get a quick guitar and vox scratch track down that the drummer can play to. Record that, then work your way up the instruments as you feel appropriate. Otherwise, maybe just get drummer, one guitar and vox in the room so you can get the drum take, then build the rest of the song up from there.

There are really SO many options, and each one will suit bands and recording engineers better in different ways. So choose what works for you and the band!

In reference to Lars, maybe he just feels he can't put down a great drum track till everything else is already there. Maybe he needs the natural song dynamics to really play to his full potential. I know from that doco that he can be pretty darn stubborn (if I recall correctly...), so I wouldn't be surprised if he said that was how he was doing it, and that was the only way it was going to be done!

Again, anything can work, but it's what works to get the best end result that matters. Know the techniques and decide which is appropriate in the circumstances.

I think it really depends.  What Matt says is pretty typical.  I use X1 as a compositional tool.  So for me it is normally scratch guitar parts first as I write the song - along with scratch drum beats.  And then scratch vocals.  Once I have the song pretty much composed, with guitars and drums, I do it like Matt - Drums, then Bass then guitars, Keys or other parts.  The real Vocals is always the very last thing for me.

A good way to look at it is the various approaches that one can do.

1     Most of the band all playing together at once. No click. Good reasons for this. It can create a vibe no other method will deliver. Be careful to mike the drums well, so if you do decide to redo stuff you won't be hearing any original spill that was created. Watch Drum OH micing in this situation. I even leave headphones off in this situation. Not usually necessary. Most people in the same room during tracking.

2     Most of the band all playing together at once with click. Headphones on obviously. Maybe put people in different locations to reduce spill. If people are in the same room, same thing applies to micing to reduce spill for replacement parts. The click is going to constrain things slightly so the need for lots of people playing together is not as great but can still work if all the musicians are great players to click tracks. (not that many around!)


3     Part of the music first and to a click. Drums are hard to play when there is little music to be guided by or get inspired by. Good idea to build up some parts for the drummer to get into. Vocals or guide vox useful here as a roadmap for drummer through the arrangement. Click will keep everyone in check timing wise.

4     Part of the music first but to no click. And if these first parts do not involve drums this is the harder scenario for the drummer to add to later unless the groove is relentless and amazing. But if it's varying here and there then it's harder work for drummer later due to the fact they will have to learn the music before they can overdub over it. Takes longer as well.

So ChuckC have a think about these situations and try and determine which one is more likely going to be the way it's done.

Record a scratch track  vocal and piano or guitar to a click track or a synth drum track..... if you are multitracking it, I would record the bass next, and then guitars, piano, strings and all other instruments  with the final tracks being the keeper vocal track. 

Drummers I have known and worked with didn't work well with a click. They have an ego issue..... believing that they have superior timing skills..... (not!) 

I try to get the rhythm part done in one take.  Drums, guitar and bass - even if I have to DI the G&B.  As Jeff says it can yield the most natural, band results and one builds from that.  Many "bands" that are just starting recording simply aren't up to patching together a performance - not everyone in the band, anyway.  If you have studio-grade musicians, they can play it backwards and never miss a lick.  But unless the band is experienced and used to recording, give them a foundation just like a live set.

Also, if you are using a band going from "live" to studio some of them will have a hard time getting the idea of layering tracks since they are used to doing one track in real time.  As the engineer you need to step into the producer shoes (they probably won't have one or maybe a friend who knows less about production than they do) and help them flesh out a song w/ more than just each playing it as if they were live. 

@

In the bazzillions of documentaries I've watched, it seems to be extremely common to track a basic rhythm section (with the singer singing along) with complete separation between drums, guitar and bass, with the goal of getting a great drum track. If anything else during that process just happens to come out really good, then great and keep it, but it's not necessarily expected.

I think it's unfortunate that that is so often done, since it definitely is putting sonics and technical perfection ahead of vibe and performance. But it's clearly very common, even with very technically accomplished bands like Rush.

Yep I suppose however it works best and makes the musicians you are working with most comfortable.  

With the record my band just did we recorded the drums midi via V drums but I sent the audio with the (though with click for most songs engaged) from the drums to our PA system just like when we rehearse (minus the click).  I recorded the bass DI and it was coming out of the amp too.  I put a 57 on each guitar cab which got very little bleed and was usable for the final recordings on most songs (unless the performance was lack luster).  We had the 3 Sm58's up like we do for vox in practice so I ran an aux from my board with all 3 vocal mics fed to it into my interface to capture scratch vocals.
  When I was done in some cases all I needed to do was go back and layer some additional guitar tracks to fatten it up and lay down the vocals one at a time with better mic's.  The last 4 songs on the record went very smooth for us this way.  The guitar mics did pick up a hair of the click but I just used those tracks as my "warm tracks" with a LPF to cut out the upper frequencies with the click and layered in some brighter tones on subsequent takes.

   On solo stuff I have done guitar and vocals to a click then tracked the drums myself to those (while listening to the click too).    The other guitarist in my band does much better with everyone playing together, he fights a click and panics when the red light goes on....  I really don't care either way, it's never phased me much.  Playing is playing and I may not be the fanciest guitarist-drummer-bassist-vocalist out there but I am nothing if not consistant and solid.

  Thanks for the replies guys.

Hi Chuck,
 I just went and listened to the Black Album.

 The drums actually sound like they are played last... they sort of sound that way both mix wise and arrangement wise. It seems as if they were played right on top of everything else. The drums react to the guitar rather than serve as a core foundation. They do form a frame work or reference to the tempo... but it's more like a net thrown over the top.

 I listened to the whole album and never got the sense that a bass player and a drummer were locked up and throwing down a groove. (Actually, Struggle Within almost sounded like a band playing together... but the guitar timing was sloppy if you regard the drums as the reference... go figure.)

 The whole band seems to follow the percussive strumming of the guitar strings or occasionally a slow motion bass arpeggio.

 It is a distinctive sound and if you are looking for that type of feel then it seems like  playing drums last is a good approach.

 best regards,
mike