ChuckC


Yep I suppose however it works best and makes the musicians you are working with most comfortable.   

That's an excellent approach Chuck.  Who knows how the session will go?  But if you're ready for anything, you should wind up with an excellent finished product and a happy customer.
 
If you've got guys that have rehearsed the heck out of the songs, that scratch track will be all the foundation you'll need.  With it, the drummer can lay down the groove, guitar and bass can add their parts, and adding vocals will be a snap.  With all the rehearsing, I've been able to nail my bass and vox parts in 1-2 takes.  It almost doesn't matter which order you record, if everyone knows their parts.
 
However, if you've got a drummer who decides to "change it up" or God forbid "try something new" in the studio, then he'd better go first.
 
If you've got a band that wants to play together with no click, then hopefully they're familiar with the idea of overdubs.  I've seen some younger (teen) musicians surprised when their first take is deemed unworthy.  "What do you mean do it again?  I was awesome!"

Yeah I have seen that too, or worse when they feel they don't need a metronome at all, their timing is aweful then they got a 8 bar break with just guitar and vocals, then when it comes time to over dub he can't get the timing right coming back in...

"No dude, you sped up and got their early....
Nope,ya slower down, A little late...
Still late.....
Dude you can hear the scratch track in the cans right? ok try it again, relax you got this!
Ehhh.... early again
You we're even earlier that time...
Late once again.....
OMG give me the F*#%ing guitar!!"   HAHA

batsbrew


the 'art' part of songwriting, is finding the method that works for you, and it does not matter what anyone else does.


don't force it, just find it.

-- Hahahahahah!  Well spoken!  This is a great topic that all of us struggle with.
 
I couldn't agree more with Bat! 
 
Methinks, studio-engineering of performance-art is a tricky business. Here's my personal quirks on creating song-creatures (and may not work for others):
 
Reminder: its best to concentrate on creating a new creature in the studio ... lest you fall into the stereotypical garage-band snare.  Its time to think more in terms of selecting 'samples' and less on selecting 'performances' ... like an artist ... but much more creative than an artist.
 
Besides, perfecto engineering of live performances requires a great expensive force of mics, studios, production engineers, etc.  Some commercial recording studios claim they can approach this.  But the results may be stereotypical, IMHO ... unless you go home with all the tracks recorded by the commercial studio. 
 
Then its time to spend some additional loving care that the hireling producer won't.  Like: Manual compressions, LCR panning, Transient shaping of bass and drums, Haas fx's, reverb, gel, beatz and grooves, etc. etc.  ... whatever the new song-creature requires to your ears and the ears of your target audience.
 
I have found that the beatz-meister wins the day ... especially for the metal drummer.  I'd get at least 8 stereo-mic layers of his samples and make his percussives snap, crack, and pop in every conceivable manner ... succinctly and professionally.  Expect that alone to take an inordinant amount of time ... like 40 hours.
 
Then I'd let my faith finish the beatz (with your wild vision) and not finish the song til Danzi or someone has reviewed the beatz.
 
Invariably, home studio-art must win the day: Like a portrait painting of another's portrait painting ... a new creature twice removed from the original song-creature ... a different and much greater animal ... hopefully immortal.
 
IOWs, its better that you alone must now play producer and decide your protocols ... from song creation to song print ... with recordings spattered everywhere in-between.  But the drums had better get real.
 
The words of Yep and Yoyo might apply: "Finished is better than perfect"
 
Like ... urgently get the track samples recorded onto tracks and take it from there ... retake, re-perform, and re-sample any way you desperately can.

Here Chuck C Read this http://www.amazon.com/Here-There-Everywhere-Recording-Beatles/dp/1592401791

Everybody can hand out advice but guess what, THERE ARE NO RULES, this book will teach you this!!!!

The sooner you get over is there a way?, the better you will become at the creative prospects of audio engineering.

He who shall remain nameless was correct in saying a band playing together without a click track is a good way to do things but that is sooo last century!!!.

Look as long as the bass player or the rhythm guitarist has the technique and can play to a click track, you can start almost anywhere.

If you are The Beatles, you can even do it without a click track.

Ok to reiterate:

NO RULE"S, we can be Digital Punks
and read Emericks book.  Also try this one: http://www.amazon.com/The-Beatles-Recording-Sessions-1962-1970/dp/0517581825

These guys invented modern studio recordings, without historical perspective it's like pissing in the dark and you will end up with piss on your boots, LOL

Neb

Jeff Evans


A good way to look at it is the various approaches that one can do.

1     Most of the band all playing together at once. No click. Good reasons for this. It can create a vibe no other method will deliver. Be careful to mike the drums well, so if you do decide to redo stuff you won't be hearing any original spill that was created. Watch Drum OH micing in this situation. I even leave headphones off in this situation. Not usually necessary. Most people in the same room during tracking.

2     Most of the band all playing together at once with click. Headphones on obviously. Maybe put people in different locations to reduce spill. If people are in the same room, same thing applies to micing to reduce spill for replacement parts. The click is going to constrain things slightly so the need for lots of people playing together is not as great but can still work if all the musicians are great players to click tracks. (not that many around!)


3     Part of the music first and to a click. Drums are hard to play when there is little music to be guided by or get inspired by. Good idea to build up some parts for the drummer to get into. Vocals or guide vox useful here as a roadmap for drummer through the arrangement. Click will keep everyone in check timing wise.

4     Part of the music first but to no click. And if these first parts do not involve drums this is the harder scenario for the drummer to add to later unless the groove is relentless and amazing. But if it's varying here and there then it's harder work for drummer later due to the fact they will have to learn the music before they can overdub over it. Takes longer as well.

So ChuckC have a think about these situations and try and determine which one is more likely going to be the way it's done.

That about covers it.

That about covers it.


+1
amen

............a band playing together without a click track is a good way to do things but that is sooo last century!!!.

This is just SOOOOOO wrong! Lets talk about a music genre that cannot really be recorded with a click and that is Jazz of course (real music, that will get a reaction wont it! LOL) It has always been done that way for decades and it still being done that way even right now as we speak. So nothing last century about that.

But it does bring up a good point about the fact as soon as many bands come into any studio situation there seems to be this thing of lets put everyone in separate spaces and put phones on everybody and away we go. The moment you put headphones on musicians even if they are all in the same room you are isolating people and that is that. Recording live all in a room without any headphones can be a refreshing experience. You can even have a modest PA setup in there so people can hear vocals and things and if you are careful with mic placement you won't record it.

But it takes a very good band to do this though and that is where many problems arise. Because if there is even a hint of difficulty in any aspect of the tune then going onto a click and headphones is a great way of ensuring at least that everything is going to come out reasonably well.

Musicians (all instruments) need to practice to a metronome (or some form of regular groove) more often than they do and then click playing would be far easier for everyone concerned. A band should not even get close to a studio if they are not ready (or good enough) to record, simple as that. I always listen to them live before I even contemplate recording them. In many cases I simply say no.

"No dude, you sped up and got their early.... Nope,ya slower down, A little late... Still late..... Dude you can hear the scratch track in the cans right? ok try it again, relax you got this! Ehhh.... early again You we're even earlier that time... Late once again..... OMG give me the F*#%ing guitar!!"   HAHA

hey Chuck-been there!
i try to get the band in for "pre-production" first and record them live as a "soundcheck".that way they are less nervous than if they were"actually" recording and i concentrate on feedback from the drummer mainly as to whether the take feels and sounds good to him or her and depending on how loud the band is and therefore how much spill there is in the overheads and usually the soundcheck takes become the drum tracks.
once again it`s horses for courses and i record live exclusively(and cheaply) and the bands i get are aware of that and i will only overdub if there is a technical problem or the overall track quality justifies it.
referencing jeffevans-i had a band last week where the chorus kicked in at 106db on the meter-no lie-JCM`s and a SVT in my small room-they refused to turn down as they would "lose the energy" and i refused to record them-no skin off my nose.
not advice just an opinion from a home studio operator cranking out budget demo`s.   
ps:i`ve never used a clicktrack successfully and it`s up to the client to decide if they are "in time" or not.
one  reason people record live is to catch the push and pull and the "feel" of a live performance(a couple of extra bpm between the verse and chorus) rather than the fidelity of the recording-i`ve been known to play behind the beat and over the bar which raises a few eyebrows but can be effective.
once again -horses for courses
cheers

I always listen to them live before I even contemplate recording them. In many cases I simply say no. 

Wise words and a rule I would strictly follow also.




There is a place for all recording methods. Playing to a click is common with a large number of genres these days, but as Jeff said, it's really not going to be the best result for all styles of music. Some music just needs that natural groove that comes from a good band playing well together. The bleed you get from all the mics combined can really add a nice feel to everything too, if done well.


There is no right on wrong way to record. Every method (well, maybe not EVERY, but most) has it's place here and there. It just depends on the music, musicians, and the sound they are trying to achieve.

Speaking of speeding up in a chorus, anyone played around with using a metronome and actually putting in a gradual 1 or 2 BPM increase leading up to a chorus to try and simulate that feel, but still have a tight sounding song? Done well, I think it can work alright, but it needs to be programmed well so it still sounds natural.