I think you are simply trying to be disagreeable and trying to force a comparison that doesn't apply.

It specifically applies to you and your complete readiness to shoot down anybody that doesn't see things your way, not the subject.  I'm merely applying the same bull headed approach (to use your words) you are famed for and even seem to enjoy having a reputation for.

And anyway it does apply when people are aware of the limitations of using Room eq as a corrective measure, as similar limitations apply to using a 'sweetened' tuning which hopefully I have managed to illustrate.  Unlike you with the famed Eq system I haven't stated that there is no benefit to use a 'sweetened' tuning, it's just that I doubt for the valid reasons given that it is much use except on the odd occasion when a guitar co-incides nicely with the reasoning behind a 'preset'.  IOW in the case of the non-typical, typical guitar.

It went wrong for you when you brought in the idea of an ideal tuning on a fretted instrument laid out for an equal tempered system.  Pure tonality and harmonic frequency relations is something I understand very well.  You could say that it is my lifetimes passion.

I got it, you want to retain a romantic notion over harmonic fact because you enjoy fine instruments.

It illuminates the reason the an oriental built guitar that costs $300 can often trump a $3000 American build as far as sweetness goes, bummer.  Yer meter there will prove that much for you, check it out.

Feel free to say touche at any time.

But facts is facts. Remember?

;-)

Jonbouy

I plan to avoid situations like that, but curious if there is an absolute quantifiable "sweetened" tuning or a case of fine tuning until it just sounds right?

Grant

There is no doubt that this a really good tuner, packed with useful features.

The 'sweetners' would be a thing of taste as there is no preset 'sweetner' for a fretted instrument.

The octave will always occur at the mid-point of a sting, there iis no getting around that simple fact.  As you know you have to adjust the bridge to get that mid-point to occur exactly at the 12th fret.

Of course that position will slightly alter using different gauge strings, prefer a higher action and to some extent because of the arching of the neck so you have to adjust the intonation after changing one of those types of setups.

Although guitars are built to very fine tolerances there will be differences introduced by slight variances in the fret spacings, fret wear which will cause the string to make contact with the fret in a slightly different position for example.  Again the choice of action you prefer will also make slight differences as there is a certain amount of tension added by fingering against a fret vs an open string.

You already know all of this.

No sweetner is going to take all these tiny variances into account in a meaningful and repeatable way on a per instrument basis.

Sweetning could work if say there was a way of a guitar that has already been adjusted for intonation well and tuned, if it then measured the discrepancy between 5 and 17th, 7 and 19th, 3rd and 15th frets It could then caculate an average offset for the entire string length down the fingerboard giving you the best compromise to get perfect pitch all the way down (error diffusion).  That's not what is happening here, you choose a preset for GTR  which likely takes a best guess at that idea from a 'standard' guitar as if there is such a thing.

IMO, sweetning is best done when you choose a guitar and it 'sings' to you when you play it.

As I said it's a fantastic tuner with great features even if you take the 'sweetning' thing as a novelty sideshow which IMO and for the reasons given on this thread, it is.  Of course there are some that will swear by this feature and on the odd 'typical' guitar (if there is such a thing!), it will nail it.

Conclusion: A great tuner even without the marketing magik of the sweetening idea.

Thanks for connecting the dots for me brother, you always have a way of cutting through the BS and your word is gold to me on such matters.

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Hope you enjoy  

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Just post some analysis results Mike when you get it.  I will tell you what is occuring and how it is helping or not.

A better approach here would have been to ask the great guitar guys round here, such as Grant, Danny, Spacey, Bill and ol' Doghouse Riley his ownself what practical approaches they all use.  If you listen to what any of those guys and a few more besides do you'll realise they have it figured out already.

You'd also likely find out something more than a preset on a device will give you.

And yes it is perfectly feasible that a deviation from a reference tuning will benfit certain keys and chord shapes, but at the detriment of others.  I've already covered that.

I reckon there's plenty enough to enjoy about the capabilities of this tuner even without the 'smoke' feature.

I think the impression I have gotten from players and producers is that the benefits can be appreciable if you are focusing the interest to some pertinent song key and playing position for some particular part of a song.

It may not be practical for live or stage playing but it sure seems attractive for recording, especially if you do a lot of over dub style multi tracking and can take the time to prepare for each part.

This is why I mentioned the notion of changing Concert pitch and/or using alternative tuning schemes.  You'll get some real tangible mileage out of that, especially having access to a tool that can get everyone singing out of the same hymn book so to speak in a matter of minutes.  Take that FWIW from yet another player and producer.

You'll intuitively learn how to get your particular guitar singing sweetly if you don't rely on something that is telling you it is, when in actuality it can't. It can only mitigate deviations across the full length of the fret board.  Whether that causes an 'improvement' to your ears you will have to call that yourself.

mike_mccue



"The octave will always occur at the mid-point of a sting, there iis no getting around that simple fact.  As you know you have to adjust the bridge to get that mid-point to occur exactly at the 12th fret."

You already know that it would more effective to adjust the location of the bridge and the nut. (or the frets, or frets and the bridge and the nut, or... ) If you can't adjust the nut, them  adjusting only the bridge to set the octave point at the 12th fret will also shift the tuning at all the frets a little bit.

For any actual fret spacing and exact scale length there is a perfect combination of mass and tension that works for perfect intonation... everything else introduces compromise... most of it so minor that no one cares. If you are talking about one of the billion Fender 25-1/2" necks that are all pretty much exactly the same or one of the millions of Gibson 24-3/4" necks that are all pretty much exactly the same it's not unrealistic to think that there are some trends which can be spotted and shared among users.

I think the impression I have gotten from players and producers is that the benefits can be appreciable if you are focusing the interest to some pertinent song key and playing position for some particular part of a song.




It may not be practical for live or stage playing but it sure seems attractive for recording, especially if you do a lot of over dub style multi tracking and can take the time to prepare for each part.


It seemed like the sweetening presets might be a way to start exploring and then you can add your own presets. I guess this premise is based on my personal opinion that many guitars and string gauge setups have more in common with each other than not. I think that trends with regards to tuning deviation on a fret board do exist and that they may be observed and so perhaps they may also be accounted for.


Anyways....


best regards,
mike

Thanks for further trying to discredit my input here by inferring that I'm not a Nashville legend or am not qualified enough to know how tuning works in the context of a guitar or that I'm not a respected player or producer.  Nice job.  Ever trying to get 'one' in below the belt yet squirming when somebody dares return in kind.

Electric guitars are fitted with adjustable saddles at the bridge, for a good reason.  The differences in guitar manufacture as you say are so slim why not put them there?  Of course that's why you'd generally check other octaves when setting up the intonation rather than just the 12th fret.  Then if you find the whole span of the open string needs shifting one way or the other you have to work out whether the costs of having the nut and or frets re-engineered/neck replaced to get it right are economical.

On an acoustic where this is not so easy you best be more careful at purchase time as these things are not as easily corrected, your new tuner will help with that.

It's why you hear of some vaunted guitars being ditched as unplayable dogs and some cheapies becoming a players best pal.

The product we are talking about is CALLED a tuner, because it IS a tuner. It's ALL about global tuning and intonation there is nothing else regarding this particular subject. 

Any half-decent guitar player should know that. Blimey, even someone known as a drummer knows that.

btw You'll find the tuning pegs on the headstock there, you'll see exactly one for each string.  That's your biggest clue.

Jonbouy


..... And yes it is perfectly feasible that a deviation from a reference tuning will benfit certain keys and chord shapes, but at the detriment of others....

That is exactly why I have never bothered with sweetened tunings. If I were playing a song that only had an E major chord (first position) in it, then raising the pitch of the third string a few cents would give me a sweeter sounding E chord, because the third would fit better into the natural harmonic structure where the third is closer to the fourth than equal temperament allows. Guitarists have known for a long time that playing the third in a distorted major chord introduces dissonance, and the reason is the third is always a little flat when using equal temperament.


So, by raising the pitch of the third string a tad I get a nicer sounding open E chord. But if I play an A Major chord that same string now gives me a sharp root note, and a sharp octave between the open A and third string second fret. If I play a D Major chord I now have a sharp sounding fifth in the chord. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak.